Episode 135: Harnessing Storytelling for Authentic Therapy Marketing [featuring Jenn Fredette]

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice podcast. I am here today with my guest, Jenn Fredette, who is a psychotherapist, also, a marketing specialist.

And we're going to talk about marketing from a different perspective today, in terms of looking at it as storytelling, and how that can really align with your clients, and feel more natural and authentic.

So, Jenn, thanks for being here and making the time. And I'm excited to have this conversation.

JENN FREDETTE: Yeah, me too. I'm excited to be here. I got to tell you just thinking of stories, like looking at your background there's, like, all of these stories going on. And I'm finding myself distracted, so…

PATRICK CASALE: Which story did you want to go with behind me?

JENN FREDETTE: Is it the mountain? Who is like right behind you?

PATRICK CASALE: Like, right here?

JENN FREDETTE: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: So, I'm a big Game of Thrones fan. And I think the Hound is my favorite character for a lot of reasons. So, my wife had her friend who's an artist paint the scene of the Hound and Arya together and put our faces on their bodies.

JENN FREDETTE: I love that.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. It was a pretty cool gift. I was pretty psyched about it.

JENN FREDETTE: Yeah. I feel like I'm just, like, jumping three steps ahead. But just thinking about when we have characters that we really identify with it really… if you want, can really impact your marketing. And when we're talking about storytelling, like, I'm having this like, "Oh, what if you and I just like co-wrote a website for your version of the Hound and maybe Arya? And like, who are you? Who is your ICA? Etc."

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure. I think marketing gets a lot easier and it feels more natural and comfortable for people when they can drop into, like, the fun parts of it. And I think that when we can identify with characters, we can then use that in terms of how that shows up for our therapy practices.

So, I talk about this a lot in my content creation and marketing courses where I ask people to choose their favorite character from a TV show or a movie and think about why would they be picking up the phone to come to therapy? Like, what would be going on in their lives? And if they were like, "Hey, I need a therapist."

Because a lot of us, you know, I don't really know your background that well, but a lot of us, I would say if I had to conservatively guess, I would say like 98% of us in the mental health space have no business awareness or training. And grad school didn't help us with that. So, when you ask people to start marketing, I think the initial reactions are like, "Ooh, gross, irk, salesy. I don't want to do it. It feels unnatural. It feels, like, uncomfortable."

But if you can get into the mindset where it's literally just storytelling, right? To connect and create this relational connection, I think it gets so much easier.

JENN FREDETTE: I think that's true. And I would even say, so, we don't know that we get training in marketing. And I don't think our grad school professors think that that's what they're doing. But a lot of, let me back up.

So, marketing is a big broad subject, right? There's lots of different things that fall underneath it. And one of the most important core pieces, whatever marketing strategy you're using is messaging, which is part of what we're talking about, right? Storytelling in your marketing.

Messaging, if we go back even further, is often connected to copywriting. And the main form of copywriting that most big brands, small brands, everybody in between use is direct conversion copywriting. Direct conversion copywriting was inspired directly by Freud's nephew, who picked up on some of the things Ford was doing and was like, "That's fascinating. What if I apply this to sales strategy?"

And so actually, a lot of our clinical training is at the foundation of what happens in marketing. And often it's just just done in a much more shallow way. Does that make sense?

PATRICK CASALE: Makes perfect sense. I actually love that perspective because it takes it away from the fact that like, we just don't have these skill sets, right? Because we do.

And I talk with clinicians all the time, like, you know how you're an expert at building relationships, you're an expert at connecting. But then when it comes to like content creation, or copywriting, it's like, "I don't know what to say." Right?

And when I audit websites, when I audit Psych Today profiles, I can almost give the same feedback in a copy-and-paste form because it's always same, right? Like, it's like, talking way too much, like a clinical, like, DSM-5, talking way too much about yourself, discussing every training and modality that you use and incorporate, when in reality if someone is struggling, they just want to know that you get it. They want to kind of get a sense from the words on your web page that it's going to feel comfortable for them to talk to you. And I think that's so much more important than anything else that we could be doing.

JENN FREDETTE: Yeah, I agree. I wonder, do you have a sense of why people default to the place, especially, if like talking about themselves and talking about credentials? I have a test, but I'm curious about what you think.

PATRICK CASALE: Yes, I think it's like, it's born out of perfectionism and… not incompetence, it's not the right word that might be a Freudian slip, is born out of perfectionism and impostor syndrome. It's almost as if, like, I have to prove my competency. I have to really let you know that I am the expert.

When I do these audits, the ones that stand out to me, because I always ask people, like, pay attention to who you would call and why, and who you would not and why. And more often than not, if you're reading a profile that's like, "Me, me, me, me, me." Then the client experience is like, "Who the hell are you talking to? It's certainly not me. It's certainly not my struggle."

But it's coming from a place of either insecurity or a place of like, I just have to prove my competency, know that I know how to help you.

JENN FREDETTE: Yeah. [CROSSTALK 00:07:09]-

PATRICK CASALE: And that's-

JENN FREDETTE: So, I agree with all of that. And I was just thinking about coming back to the way that we're taught that a lot really gets grounded in you need to have a certain level of expertise to do this, which is, actually, a way to distance ourselves, I think, from the power that exists in this relationship just by the fact that you are going to be the one who holds the container.

And so there's often this move of like if I could be the expert then people will come to me, versus can I be the attuned person who can see them even in a Psych today profile, or something as small as like a call to action button on your website that somebody's like, "Oh, you really get me."

And it's weird, actually, when we are so focused on expertise, we are disempowering ourselves, and not actually showing the really amazing work we do with people, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I agree 100%. And I think that authenticity plays a big factor. And I think that authenticity and vulnerability go hand in hand. And it's like, the more I share about myself, or if I disclose anything about my own struggle or relatability, this now means I'm unethical or unprofessional. In reality, that's really what your clients want because they just want to know you get it, they just want to know, like, you see them, you can affirm them, you can validate, you can hold that space.

You know, I talk about this publicly all the time, so I have no problem talking about it now. But for a lot of my life, in my 20s, late teens, and 20s, I had a massive gambling addiction. And it was really hard to find a therapist who got it.

And then I finally stumbled upon a page where someone was like, "Yeah, you know, I was at the casinos every night until six in the morning. It was so self-destructive. I pushed away all my friends and family. You know, things were really falling apart." Blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I was like, "Finally, this is person." And I think that works on so many layers. One it's like, okay, instantaneous connection, instantaneous rapport without even meeting this person. Okay, they get it. That's a sigh of relief. Okay, I need to call this person and contact them, okay? They take my insurance or they don't, I don't even care at this point in time because I need this person to be my therapist.

So, I think it works on so many levels when we start talking about, like, that storytelling component.

JENN FREDETTE: Yeah, yeah. And adding to that, I have a student who sometimes will talk about like the super-secret handshake, of like the things that only you will have known if you've lived that experience. Like, I imagine casinos at like 5:00 Am have a certain smell. Or like there's a particular carpet pattern or like there's something specific that you only know if you've been there.

And I think sometimes that trips therapist up, people, in general, up, of like, okay, I'm willing to really put myself out there, but here's my edge. Like, I don't want to do this much self-disclosure. And there's ways that you can self-disclose without saying, like, I was also a gambling addict, and I'm now in recovery, which if you're comfortable, that's your style, that's fine. But there's ways that you can layer in how you know what you know. Does that make sense?

PATRICK CASALE: It does. And I think it all comes down to comfort level, right? Like you said, I think for me, as a therapist, I've always been very direct, very authentic, very honest, and it's worked really well. But it also worked really well attracting the clients that I wanted to attract.

So, I noticed like, early on, I mainly worked and I always think about our niches as like versions of ourselves because we often get into this field to heal unhealed versions of ourselves. And I remember starting off, like my main target client pop was like, young, male-identifying adults who were struggling with addiction and recovery. I was like, "Okay, well, this is my jam, I know it inside and out."

And I was like talking very clinically, very robotic, very like, "professionally" in my pages and I wasn't getting the right calls. And I just remember one day being like, "I'm going to rewrite my Psych Today." And I just remember, like, writing, "Okay, asking for help is vulnerable. Vulnerability can be fucking scary. And that is okay." And I was like, "Delete, delete, delete. I don't want to save that. I don't want to publish that."

And I was like, "Why do I care so much?" So, I just published it. And I started getting calls from young adult men who were like, "I feel like I can talk to you because you cursed in your content." And that was like this epiphany moment where I was like, "Oh, this is all this is about. It's just about rapport, relatability."

And I think relatability is accessibility. I think that for so many reasons, especially, for groups of marginalized folks as well, because again, "Secret handshake." But more importantly, this idea, right, of like, I'm going to come into therapy, and I'm not going to have to completely retell my story because you're going to get some of it, maybe not the individualized specifics, but you're going to get the pieces that are really hard for me to open up and talk about.

JENN FREDETTE: Yeah, I agree. In, I think the other pieces, you're going to know where I might go into avoidance, right? Like, in a way that if you haven't had some lived experience, you might not know there's this whole other patch or ways that I might temper how I say when I'm about to say to you.

I think about this when I work with people who are trans and non-binary and I'm not. I always tell people, I'm like, "What white supremacy wanted me to be other than a woman, like, cisgender, etc., etc."

And there are places where I've had to do a lot of consultation, so I know what that shadow area is because I just don't have that lived experience.

And I think in our marketing, we're wanting to choose places where we're competent. And if you have lived experience, you're competent.

The other thing I see, and I work with a lot of people who don't just do individual work, but end up doing couples or family, or like, I had a couple of people who do multiples, they were the poly community, which was really interesting.

And whenever we're working with groups, I often find that people aren't just trying to work out where they have been. But especially, with couples, like what happened to my parents, and like, let me figure this out. Or when I started, I also marketed to young guys in their 20s because I was really trying to figure out my younger brothers. So, it was like young dudes in tech, like, also the walls are ready to go. Like, I will call you the fuck out. I charge $200 an hour, I know you're young and poor, but I'm worth it.

And so trying to figure out my relationship and the transference there, right? Like, big sister, like, how am I going to work that out with now my brothers? So, what's so fun about this work is you get to grow and get paid for it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think the beauty in this, right, when we're talking about marketing, when we're talking about ideal clientele, when we're talking about anything in this profession is that it's constantly evolving. Like, where I started out at in 2016 is not where I ended up. And I cannot tell you how many iterations I had of websites, and content, and epiphany moments of like, "Oh, this is where my content should go and this is what feels relatable." And your niche also evolves over time.

So, like, whether it be through your style, or your personality, or the populations you like to serve, I think that continuously evolves with like, more training, more experience, more life experience, more mistakes that you make along the way. And all of that stuff really helps you kind of cultivate the story that you're telling.

And storytelling and marketing, also, for those of you listening that are like, I want diversified streams of income, I want to go into coaching, I want to go into other platforms, other areas, storytelling is key. Like, your sales pages have to tell the story, your sales pages have to place people in those environments or those moments so that they can sit there and say, "I do want to go on this retreat because I need to be sitting in this room or being a part of this." Or, "This is specifically created for me."

And I think the more we can get creative, and because you mentioned the stuff behind me, like if we can tap into our inner child, and that fun, creative, like excited mentality, it's a lot easier to get into a flow state and get more comfortable with your marketing, in general.

JENN FREDETTE: Yeah, I'm with you on that. And as you're talking about storytelling, I can feel a part of me, I think it's probably a younger [INDISCERNIBLE 00:16:11], "But Patrick, like how do we tell stories?"

Which I know an answer to that question. But I think sometimes when we're talking about these marketing concepts, they sound really simple on the surface. Like, let's just tell more stories on your website. And I can imagine listeners like, "Okay, yes. I'm on board, but like, how the hell do we do that? Like, what do we do?"

And I know, at least, for me, one of the most transformative pieces of my marketing was recognizing that there are… they're not even patterns, they're sort of, like, these no recipe recipes for how you can do these kinds of things, there are structures, there are templates, not that you have to plug in. Like, it's not like a mad libs. But like, here's some structure you can follow. Very much like, particular interventions you might engage with, with clients.

Is that your sense of storytelling? Or do you just sit down and it comes?

PATRICK CASALE: I just sit down and it comes. That's why it's so hard for me to sometimes, like, teach other people how to have my process because my process is just very different for people. I think, for a lot of neurodivergent folks like myself, our processes can't really be feeling like it's confined, or constricted, or like I have to operate with this box.

So, my process is like when spontaneity and creativity hit me I just follow it. And then I can be so hyper-focused on it, that it can take me down a path for days, but that's where my best work comes.

If I said to myself, "All right, here's this template, sit down, do it from this hour to this hour." I will fuck off and do other things. And I will be scrolling out my phone and like it won't get done.

So, I think it just depends on your style, your brain, the way that your thinking processes work. And I think for some people, they really want that template, for sure. Like, they're like without it. I feel so lost. And I need to anchor into something.

So, talk a little bit more about your process. For those who are listening who are like, yeah, templates, like having some structure, that's really my jam.

JENN FREDETTE: So, and I want to say like, I don't do straight-up templates. And if you are an online marketer, and you click on just one or two Facebook ads, you will be inundated with all of this stuff. I've had so many templates over the years just to be like, "Oh, what are other people doing?"

And I don't think I'm neurodivergent but I do you hang out sometimes in that space of like, yeah, no, I don't want to fucking do it that way. Like, I'm going to do it my way.

So, often the ways that I like to sit with people is it's not so much about having to follow a certain way that having some boundaries, having some containment, and having an awareness of what we're trying to move somebody to, right?

If we're having a conversation with somebody, especially, like a client that we're wanting to help move them towards an intervention, we're going to follow, often, certain path. It might be very intuitive, and then you like sit down after and you're like, "Oh, I was doing this, and this, and this."

And so there's a lot of copywriting formulas that for me feel really helpful in guiding the process of whether it's customer journey, or really trying to move people to a conversion, right? A sales conversion, or just taking the next step.

So, typically, what I like to do with students is start to teach them building blocks that you can then apply in a variety of ways. And copywriting has lots of these formulas. Like, you've probably used AIDA, which is attention, interest, desire action. I really like PAS because I'm a pretty direct person and just want to get to the heart of the matter. So, it's naming the problem you agitate it, or clinically, we would talk about amplifying it so we can really look at it. You then copyright [INDISCERNIBLE 00:21:12] you discredit all the things that they've tried before. I like to think of it as I'm going to validate all of the hard work you've put in before you ever came to try to come to me to solve your problem.

And then solution, and the solution there, where I see my students get tripped up is, well, I'm the solution, right? So, just come and work with me, and you are never the solution, you're just a person. You're somebody who's going to hold the container to help people get to where they're going to get, right?

So, coming back to, like, gambling addiction, the solution wasn't that you can work with this person, the solution was that he would help you work through a process to get to a place that you could be more grounded. And like, there are probably a variety of components to that.

So, often, like those are the core building blocks. It's like being able to beat eggs for your scrambled eggs. You might make a soufflé, you might have to separate your eggs in that case, but you might make an omelet, scrambled eggs, like whatever you're going to make is dependent on who you are and what you want. But you can build these sets of building blocks and create things like a sales page or an email sequence for people who are wanting to do more than just one-on-one or like therapy work, essentially.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

JENN FREDETTE: Is that a landing? Do you use copywriting formulas in your stuff?

PATRICK CASALE: Nope. But again, to everyone listening don't do what I do. When I do coaching sessions, and we do like content creation courses, what we try to do is break out of the black-and-white thinking of like, this is how a therapist is supposed to present.

So, we'll take stuff that feels really simplistic, right? Like anxiety, depression, trauma, we just go with those three because those are like the big three when we're talking about a lot of content creation around like, "I will help you through your anxiety, depression, and trauma."

Let's start breaking that down without saying those words. Like, let's start explaining and describing what it's like to live with anxiety from a physical standpoint, from a somatic standpoint, from an emotional place, from how does it show up in friendships, and relationships, and at work.

Then what will start to happen is like, it feels very broad, it feels very general. Like, oh, tension in my stomach and like worrying about every little thing. Then as you get more and more comfortable, what I start to see is that people start to start incorporating actual examples of like, their own life, their own experiences, et cetera. So, then it becomes much more real. And then you start to see the flow state happen. And people start to be able to like, piece it together.

But really try hard to get away from diagnostic terminology because I think, like, I no longer practice as a therapist, haven't in about a year and a half. But I remember sitting with so many clients who were like textbook, generalized anxiety disorder, and bring up the word anxiety. And the clients like, "I don't have anxiety." And you're like, "Well, if I tell you the symptoms, right, and all the criteria." Then it's like, "Oh, yeah, that's definitely me."

So, just again, bringing it back to this place of like human beings, connection, real day-to-day experiences. That's always my go-to in this situation.

I love the fact that you mentioned like, it's not you as the therapist who's going to be the solution, right? And that's so often what I see of like, "I will walk alongside you, I will be non-judgmental, I will do all the things."

It's like we don't have to say that because like that's implied in this profession. And I don't think that needs to be like, emphasized. But the reality is like, yeah, you're going to hold space, you're going to be the container, you're going to be able to be a sounding board in some ways, and you're going to help them examine the process and find solutions. And I think that's important to notate. So, I love that you named that.

JENN FREDETTE: Yeah, I'm going to add to and it sounds like you're doing this, is something in part because most of where… I do a lot of marketing strategy with my people, but messaging is my favorite piece. I love, love, love to write, and figuring out, how do you write in compelling attuned ways, is like what I want to spend my extra time on.

And one of the things that I see often in marketing material is how people merge niche and ICA, ideal client avatar, and they are separate components. Like, niche is really where you're focused in your business and like who it is you want to serve. There's a huge variety of people in any sort of niche.

An ICA is actually a copywriting technique that we actually choose a person which I was like, I called him the mountain, which I think is his older brother, is that right? Complicated relationship, I think, it's been a while since I have read Game of Thrones.

But here's the Hound. We could take him as an ICA and write a profile very specifically for him. And we can do that, of course, with characters if we're really stuck. But almost everybody I've ever worked with, if I'm like, "Is there a client that you just love to sit with?"

And you're like, "How do you have this person find me? Like, this person just feels so good. They're able to take what I have to offer. They challenge me. Like, I'm growing. Like, this relationship feels really good." Then we can take that person and just write material for them, right? Like, how would you say this to that client and get really, really specific?

I drive my students nuts. I'm certain, Patrick, if you looked at their stuff, you'd like, "Oh, man, this is really good." I'm like, "No, we can do better. Like, let's drill it down a little bit more. Like I want to know where that purse is bought? Like, what is in their underwear drawer? Like, give me the details."

And people often get tripped up like I'm being so specific, nobody's going to want to come and work with me because they won't match this profile. It's like no people are going to feel seen even if some of these details don't match because they can see that you see somebody. It's almost a way of demonstrating that you can do clinical work through your messaging.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. You know, that's spot on. And you know, I'm thinking about this online summit I'm running right now. Anna Walker is one of our speakers. She was talking about how casting a taller net is better than casting a wider net. You're going to catch more fish. And the reality is that, is like we get so caught up of like, "This is too specific, nobody's ever going to call me." But in reality, people are going to find one sentence and just be like, "Yeah, I struggle with that." Or, "That feels like me." So, that's certainly really important.

And, you know, I'm thinking about characters, right? And we were talking about the Hound from Game of Thrones, you could write content for that character so easily. Like, this big, strong, aggressive, violent person. But behind all of it is like massive trauma, massive sadness, the desire to protect, the desire to connect, and constantly feeling alone and isolated.

And you could take that and just run with that. And that can speak for so many people. So, I think if you're able to tap into this creative way of thinking, and marketing, and creating, it really does help set you apart. And it really does help attract the right clients, the ones like you mentioned. I always think about at it as like the client where 50 minutes goes by and you never looked at the clock, instead of clients, which we all have had, where you're, like, out of your peripheral looking at the clock, like, "Oh, my God, we are eight minutes into this session. Like, where's this going?"

But I think we just have to be honest with ourselves about that stuff, too. And I think that can be complicated for mental health professionals to say, I really enjoy this, and I don't enjoy this.

JENN FREDETTE: And you could tell me your experience. And I've been practicing almost 10 years now. So, I mostly have people that I don't look at the clock for. And what I have noticed over time is when I'm having those sessions when I am feeling more agitated, like where's this going? Like, what are we doing? I am massively triggered when people go to helpless places and like can't step into their own power, their own competency. Like, that kicks all my stuff up.

And what I have found in my marketing that it's really important for me to do, so at marketing the call lead qualification that for me is really just helping people have informed consent, that if you work with me, this is my style, this is how I show up. And I'm not going to just be like, "And this is what I do, A, B, and C." Because that's just boring.

But I'm going to walk you through, like imagine yourself in this process, this is what I'm imagining you would say, this is what I'm imagining I would say. I'm not using the phrase, "I'm imagining" I just tell the story.

But I've found now when I have consult calls, people are just ready. Like, I've walked them through, where I want to start with people. So, I don't have to go back to the beginning and work through defenses that I don't enjoy working with. And I've done it and I'm competent I could do it.

So, I was trained early in DBT, so it did a lot of that structuring with people. And I just don't want to do that anymore.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep. And I want to just say and emphasize that when you say, I don't want to do that anymore, for all of you listening, when you feel a certain sort of way about that is that's okay. And it's important to get honest with yourself.

And one thing I do in my coaching courses is like, we make columns A, B, and C. Column A is like, these are the clients where the clock flies by, I love these. You know, these are the ones I enjoy.

B is like ambivalence. Like, I'm good at this, I am indifferent, though. I don't feel any sort of way.

C is like, I don't want to work with this, with this, with this, with this personality type, with this struggle, this area of concern. We have to get honest about column A and C. I think that you constantly reevaluate those things throughout your private practice careers and journeys. Because those things are going to change. The things that you might feel really passionate about today, you may not really enjoy in a year. And the more life experience, and training, and professional development, you know, those interests are going to change.

And another thing that stands out to me is like, you're talking about these clients that you really love and describe those experiences, right? Write that stuff down. Like, what are those clients saying in sessions? What are those clients in for? What are those clients, like, struggling with, those are the pain points that you can hone in on, if you want to create that narrative or that content that says like, this is my ideal client, this is my avatar, this is who I help. So, that's great, like, free market data and research when people are just telling you what they're coming in for and what they're struggling with.

JENN FREDETTE: I mean, it cracks me up sometimes when I see marketing programs, advising therapists to do market research, like go out. And specifically, I'm like, "You already have people who are literally paying you. Like, maybe let's just expand your notes a little bit."

When I was actively building my practice, something I'm really grateful I did, and I won't do it anymore, is I used to always have a direct quotation from the session, and then I'd write the rest of my note. And so when I was rebranding and rewriting my current website, I was able to flip through and be like, "Oh, I actually am hearing a lot of my clients use the phrase, 'Oh, I'm intrigued by that, Jenn.'"

And if two or three clients use a phrase consistently, I feel okay using it in my marketing. It doesn't feel like PHI. And so it was able to like, "Oh, I'm going to use this. And a lot of my calls to action on my therapy practice website, 'I'm intrigued, I'm in.'" Like, phraseology I'm already hearing from current clients.

So, long story short, you don't need to do market research if you have clients.

PATRICK CASALE: You probably have it, right? Like, it's just about thinking differently about how you are doing your sessions, and your intakes, and taking your notes. Like, just thinking about what is often said, what phrases, what phrases do I use a lot? Like, let me incorporate that into my content, or to my website. Like, I know, one of my favorite therapist's phrases is like, both can be true. I feel like I'm always like making hand motions like this when I say it. But that's true of, you know, just the way I speak. I curse a lot. That also ends up in my content. Like, it's just about being real and true to yourself, too. And I think that's important.

So, this is an interesting and fascinating conversation. And I've enjoyed this. So, we are getting close to time. And I just want to see if there's any, like, last-minute suggestions, tips that you have for everyone that's listening. And also share where the audience can find what you are doing in the community.

JENN FREDETTE: Sure. So, we didn't talk much about this today, but I feel like it's underneath. There's a reason why we often struggle with storytelling, and writing, in general. And it's often because we have been told the way we do it is wrong, whether it's in grad school, or third-grade elementary teacher, or variety of other places. And then often there have been ways that our voices have gotten silenced or told like you're not saying it right. Like, don't do it that way. Because I think that's really why people often move to jargon or move to blend in and sound generic.

And so that's something I think a lot about underneath all of this marketing strategy is can we do some healing around the ways that we've been told, basically, to shut up or to speak the way everybody else is speaking. So, I like all that.

I actually talk a lot more about these kind of inner places that we get blocked, that really prevent us from doing the marketing strategy, taking the marketing action, which is really not that complicated. Marketing is pretty simple, actually, if you don't have all that other stuff underneath.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

JENN FREDETTE: So, I have a free workshop that we talk about all of that, we talk about storytelling, we talk about marketing strategy, and we talk about that soul work underneath, full caseload unlocked.

So, your listeners if they're interested, they want to hang out with me for another 45 minutes, they can go to athinkersguide.com/breakthewheel, which is my Nan since you're a Game of Thrones fan. I also hang out on Instagram @athinkersguide, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Very cool. And all of that information will be in the show notes so that you have easy access to everything that Jenn just offered and mentioned. And you can connect with her there.

Thanks so much for coming on and making the time today. It was a lot of fun.

JENN FREDETTE: Thanks so much.

PATRICK CASALE: To everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. And we will see you next week.