Episode 103: Breaking Barriers: Addressing Ableism in Mental Health and Advocating for Change [featuring Janelle Johnson]
Many mental health professionals may struggle with their own internalized ableism, consciously or unconsciously perpetuating harmful beliefs and practices.
In this episode, I talk with the incredible Janelle Johnson, a licensed therapist and founder of Bridges Family Life Center. And let me tell you, the insights we discussed were mind-blowing! 💥
Janelle opened up about her journey in the mental health field, focusing on her own neurodivergence struggles, challenging her own internalized ableism, and advocating for equity in education. 🌟
We dove deep into the role of therapists in addressing ableism and dismantling the problematic aspects of the mental health system. Are we just bandaging or truly understanding the root causes of struggles? 🤔
We also delved into the experiences of marginalized communities, the importance of cultural sensitivity, and the power of relationships in healing trauma. And we even talked entrepreneurship and innovation! 🌍
So, folks, get ready to unpack and unlearn the complexities surrounding mental health. This conversation will challenge your perspectives and empower you to make a positive impact in the world! ✨
Thank you, Janelle, for sharing your authentic story. You are truly an inspiration! If you want to hear more on neurodivergence and entrepreneurship, stay tuned for our next episode! 🎧
Reasons to listen:
- Understand about Internalized Ableism: Many mental health professionals may struggle with their own internalized ableism, consciously or unconsciously perpetuating harmful beliefs and practices. This episode addresses the importance of recognizing and challenging these biases, providing insights and perspectives from someone who has gone through their own journey of self-discovery and disability advocacy.
- Learn about Systemic Analysis: It is crucial for therapists to understand that mental health struggles are not isolated issues; they are often intertwined with social, economic, and institutional factors. By examining the root causes of mental health challenges in marginalized communities, therapists can better advocate for change and support holistic healing.
- Hear Patrick and Janelle talk about their own journeys with Autism & ADHD diagnoses, and how they've had to do a lot of deep, introspective work to help unpack their own stigmas and beliefs.
- Identify the disconnect between Mental Health Practice and Social Issues: The mental health field often focuses on individual struggles without adequately acknowledging the systemic and social factors that contribute to mental health challenges. This episode delves into the intersectionality of mental health, disability, and social issues such as racism, trauma, and economic challenges. It's important to question the existing mental health structure and explore ways to address root causes of issues rather than simply treating symptoms.
More about Janelle:
Janelle Johnson, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, is a wife, mother, and Founder of Bridges Family Life Center - a Systemic Therapy and Consulting group practice near Raleigh, NC. An award-winning educator and innovative mental health leader, she is often sought out for consulting regarding intersectionality of ableism, sexism, and racism. She currently serves as President of the NC Association of Marriage and Family Therapy. She also volunteers as a clinician and subject matter expert with Postpartum Support International as well as Give-An-Hour: a national military mental health initiative. A graduate of NC State University and Chapman University, she has returned to her first alma mater as a doctoral student in the Educational Equity program where she is also a research assistant studying education interventions for autistic students and their families. Mrs. Johnson delivers dynamic relational health training and consulting to organizations across the country, providing hope and guidance for intercultural connection and work-life harmony. In her free time, you’ll find her hanging out with her family, eating great food, gaming, hiking, or resting while binging K-dramas on Netflix.
Janelle's Website: bridgesflc.com
A Thanks to Our Sponsors: The Receptionist for iPad & Heard!
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PATRICK CASALE: Hey everyone, you are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale. I'm joined today by Janelle Johnson. She has an LMFT outside of Raleigh, North Carolina, group practice owner. And today we are going to talk about creating an anti-ableist practice.
And Janelle, I really appreciate you making the time and coming on here to have this conversation. It's an important one, for sure. And thanks for being here today.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. Glad to actually spend some time talking with you. I've known you for a long time. And I know you're a fellow Lord of the Rings enthusiast, but, saying, yeah, I'm super excited to be here and talk with your folks about this today.
PATRICK CASALE: I'm excited too, but now that you mentioned that my brain is going to diverge. And I feel like we could just have this podcast about Lord of the Rings and-
JANELLE JOHNSON: Oh, yeah, we could.
PATRICK CASALE: …we can kind of see, I actually, just booked a two-week Lord of the Rings tour in New Zealand for December, that my wife is gladly not coming on, so…
JANELLE JOHNSON: What? You have to tell me all about it because that's going to be one of my graduation gifts to myself. Like, I got to do this. But my husband would never. He would have to come. We're both ridiculous enthusiasts. So, you know.
PATRICK CASALE: My wife was like, "If you want to go, go, I am not coming with you on that. I don't want to be a part of that." I don't blame you. All right, fair enough. But I'll send you the link when we get off of here.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Okay.
PATRICK CASALE: Okay, so today we are talking about how to create, and foster, and grow an anti-ableist practice. And you suggested this topic. So, anytime I have people suggest something that they feel really passionate about, I kind of want to get an understanding as to what fuels the fire or what makes this feel like a really important topic for you? So, take it away.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Well, when I originally entered the mental health field, I didn't have ability or disability, specifically, on my mind. Like most of us, I was concerned with things that were going on in my family, and in my community, and ran around me. And the way that manifested in trauma, family issues, in neurodivergence that wasn't diagnosed, and you know, all kinds of cool things.
So, I didn't really like connected to ability, specifically. That journey has really developed just over the past maybe seven or eight years since I've become a parent. And I've started to do the work to address my own internalized ableism, center my identity development around disability that had not been fostered before. And then, eventually, you know, the work that I'm doing in my doctorate now, I'm doing educational equity with a focus on disability. So, it's just been a combination of kind of just seeing things for what they are.
And my refrain that I've been carrying around the mental health field for the last three or four years is that every mental health professional is a disability advocate. And so, that's kind of where that journey has come from.
PATRICK CASALE: There's a lot to unpack there. So, recognizing, I like that you're naming, like my own internalized ableism because I myself have talked about this on my other podcast with Megan Neff about when being diagnosed late in life with autism, ADHD, like there's still a lot of internalized ableism to unpack even as someone who identifies as part of that community. So, that's something I think that's really important to know that Janelle just mentioned because, for a lot of us helpers, we do have these biases, we do have these reactions to things, we have these ways that we've been conditioned through society to react to certain labels, and diagnoses, and struggle areas. So, that's really, really important. I just want to highlight that.
And then it sounds like just really operating from a different lens now, and a different perspective, and seeing the world from a different vantage point too. So, it's informing, basically, everything that you're doing. It sounds like parenting, identity work, your group practice ownership, your education. So, it sounds like a culmination of a lot of intentionality behind what you're trying to do in this world.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Definitely, I think intentionality is the right word, and in culmination It's really finding that there's this underlying thing that nobody's talking about, or very few people are talking about, especially, in mental health. I don't know why we don't hear more about disability, and ableism, and anti-ableism given the work that we do.
And every time that I go do a talk on this topic, one of the first things that I remind people is that if you are giving someone a diagnosis, you are introducing them to the disability community.
PATRICK CASALE: Yes, yes, that is so important to highlight because once that diagnosis is attached, right? There is now a differentiation and interpretation of my own vantage point on myself, my thought processes, and my ability to function or not function to need accommodation. All of a sudden, it starts to stir up a lot of emotion around, how did I never see this? How come I wasn't aware? How come my family wasn't aware? What did I miss? What did I do wrong? There's a lot of shamefulness that comes up with that process as well.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Yes, and we don't recognize that the shame is the connection to the ableism. That if we didn't have ableism, there wouldn't be shame, right? That it's not a shameful thing. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a major depression disorder, or an ADHD, or an anxiety diagnosis. Inherently there's nothing wrong with it. It's the ableism that is the undercurrent of our society that drives a lot of the things that we have to process whenever we do get a diagnosis.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. We are living in an ableist society, so anything that is less than typical starts to create this situation where we are looked at or inherently looked at as being different or flawed. But in reality, it's really just a byproduct of the society that we live in the culture that we experience, the expectations, the ways that things are set up or not set up to be accommodating or supportive. And then people trying to overfunction or trying really hard to push beyond their capacity and executive functioning, in general, to be able to just participate in everyday life.
JANELLE JOHNSON: That part. There's been a lot instances with clients that I've worked with where, and this is particularly, a challenge in black and brown communities, which is probably, 60% of the clients it at my practice are black and brown because that's one of our specialties is that is people of color.
But one of the challenges that we face in communities of color is also beginning to embrace this disability moniker and that there's been so many challenges with just showing up as black, just showing up as brown, then you want me to add this other thing on top of it. Like, I don't have space, I don't have the room, I can't process that, especially, in this climate, in the social climate that we're in now post-Trump.
So, it's a lot to ask of people if you're thinking from an intersectional place of understanding how everything overlaps, all of our different identities overlap and compound, oppression. It's a lot to ask of someone if they're black or brown to add a diagnosis on top of that. Those are things that I help organizations and practices start to sort through as far as making sure that our therapists, and our clinicians, and our staff are prepared to support people effectively and in a culturally sensitive way when they're thinking about just the idea of giving folks diagnosis.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that's a really powerful statement to process. So, not only is there a lot of power differentiation in the ability to diagnose someone with something that's attached to them for the rest of their lives, but what you're talking about is people of color who are already marginalized, who already are feeling like other, or distant, or disconnected, or not supported, to then add an additional layer of complexity here to further kind of create this narrative of dysfunctional, or broken, or not as adequate, or as good, or competent as you start to think about the stigmatization that comes with mental health diagnoses in our society.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Definitely, and stigma makes it sound so good, right? Like, one of the words that I'm not a huge fan of is stigma. Like, it's still discrimination, it's still oppression, it's just like another lighter… we give it a lighter word when it's in the mental health field, when we're talking about race, for instance, or whatever, but then we get desensitized to the very real damage, the very real trauma, the mental and physical health disparities, all the things that come out of that word stigma. I don't know, I don't want to tangent there.
PATRICK CASALE: No, tangents are good. And they're encouraged on this podcast anytime your brain diverges. So, I think you're right. And I think that there is this ability to kind of say, you know, if this is stigmatized, where we're really desensitizing this word, right? And it's a buzzword in the mental health community, for sure, to say like the stigma of mental health, but we're not really actually examining what is creating the propensity and the increased connection and correlation to more pervasive mental health struggles and conditions in marginalized communities, and the inequities that are facing the socio-economic challenges, and institutionalized racism, and all the things that create trauma, and depression, and anxiety, etc.
And then if we're kind of using this ableist lens to view how people are showing up, and functioning in society, and how they're able to work or not work, or what they're able to participate in, it really does create further divide, and it creates further and increased discrimination.
JANELLE JOHNSON: It does and the damage of that is far-reaching. It's far-reaching because the overwhelming majority of us as therapists, we came into this work wanting to help others, wanting to put good into the world, and to not know that our gaps in knowledge are actually perpetuating harm and perpetuating trauma. You know, that gap in knowledge is something that we can't afford, we as therapists can't afford, and the community at large can't afford because, I don't know, I take a lot of, I think, our work as therapists it's unique, and there aren't a lot of other people in the world who can fill this space. So, I liken it to The Giver. The Giver is one of my favorite books.
PATRICK CASALE: Me too.
JANELLE JOHNSON: I love that book. I had no idea I was going to be a therapist later in life when I fell in love with the book as a kid. But you know, there's this one person who could be the giver, the person who's being trained is the receiver, but there's this one person who's going to carry all the weight, and all the stressors, and all the memories of this entire community. Like, that's what therapists are for the world. Like, we carry this deep intimate connection with our humanity that other people don't have to walk around with.
And so, knowing that you have this responsibility, and this skill set, and this training, and how powerful it is, you know, what are we doing with that? How are we managing that responsibly with respect to ableism and everything else but with respect to ableism? Are we being a part of the tank that's just kind of moving and keeping ableism going? Because honestly, yeah, kind of. Like, the way the mental health structures are set up now, yeah? We are part of the problem.
The APA in 2021, they posted an apology to black and brown communities about their role in perpetuating racism, right? And we've seen similar apologies from some of the other license types.
But the APA in their apology, they were the most thorough. And I really liked how they talked about how they allied [INDISCERNIBLE 00:15:29] even diagnoses like [INDISCERNIBLE 00:15:32] mania, like there were things that the system that was built was created to perpetuate, you know, racism. If there's no ableism, is there mental health? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. If there aren't problems that cause ailments that society can't accommodate, or won't accommodate, then we might not really have jobs.
So, you know, we're a part of this healthcare system that kind of just, we don't necessarily heal, per se, we put bandages on things, but we're not actually like getting to the root cause of things. And therefore, perpetuating things like ableism.
I don't know. It's an issue. It's a catch-22. I've heard other people, even on this podcast talk about like, how do you work in this space, but then like, do the work to begin unwinding what's happening or dismantling what's happening? It's tricky.
PATRICK CASALE: Tricky is a good word. Well, to minimize everything you just said, tricky is like, that's a very good word. I had a guest on for last week's episode or two weeks ago, Elizabeth McCorvey talking about the mental health industrial complex, and the complexity of working in this profession while also acknowledging that this profession is doing a significant amount of harm, and perpetuating these struggle areas of so many people because this is the best we've got. Like you said, this is in a lot of ways, like, am I going to say therapy is not useful? No, I get a lot out of it. I know lots of people who get a lot out of it.
But 50 minutes a week or every other week to talk for 50 minutes, and then, you know, go back into society where all these problems still exist, and these lack of accommodations, or supports, the problem will never resolve itself because you're constantly being thrown back into a world of trauma, and chaos, and alienation, and discrimination.
And we know that communities are healing. Yeah, in my opinion, our communities, often, in this country feel very fragmented, and disjointed, and isolated, and separate.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Definitely. It's a growing concern, especially, with expansion. In the U.S. we're expanding outward. There are a lot of complaints with expanding upward, you know, in more urban areas. But the challenges with expanding outward are problematic for loneliness. We're seeing increased loneliness because we are increasingly in suburbia. And so, we're more separate, we don't have spaces where we're communing together. And so, it's definitely an issue.
I think, the reason that I chose marriage and family therapy out of all the license types is because it aligned most with my value system of relationship, it's relationship that heals. The greatest trauma happens in the context of relationship, so does the greatest healing.
So, if you want, in my opinion, I knew I wanted a practice that focused on addressing trauma in black and brown families. And I knew that black and brown folks tend to be more collectivist. We tend to have a stronger attachment to community as an ideal. And so, marriage and family therapies will align best with that. And so, that's why I chose it, that's why my practice is a family therapy practice. It's why we embody systemic therapy, systemic approaches in all that we do, even in our consulting that we do.
So, it's not that therapy and mental health can't embrace community. It's why marriage and family therapy began because everyone else was doing this one thing and we were like, "No, that's not working, that's not going to get us anywhere."
So, it's not that we can't, it's such a mental shift, it's such a such a big lift. It's a big lift, even for us as MFTs where we're trained to be this way. And yet, it gets pulled out of us once we get back into the workforce that doesn't operate that way.
So, there are communities, there are cultures who don't approach ability and disability the same way as the Global North. And we can learn a lot from the way that other people can mean with one another, the way that other people operate in their families, and in their towns, and the way that they build their laws and things like that. But we just have to look around, we have to know what's going on, be cultural anthropologists, if you will, and infuse those things into the way that we do our work.
PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that. I couldn't say it better myself. I think that's why I have some, like, I've talked about having like, I have the privilege to have traveled quite a bit over the last couple of years. And I think there's always a grief process when you go to other countries and kind of see how communities come together, and spend time outdoors, and spend time eating meals together, and they support one another. And then I have this grief, and I'm like, "Why, can't we do that?" Like, clearly this is not a global problem. Like, this is an us issue. So, it's always a struggle for me emotionally to just conceptualize and understand that life could definitely be very different if we kind of had different value systems in place here.
And, you know, we live in a capitalist society that's founded on supremacy culture, and ableism, and grind, and hustle.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Yes, yes. Oh, speaking of grind, and hustle, and ableism and the supposed oxymoron of that, I can't tell you how many times, you know, I'm speaking somewhere, I'm on a podcast like this or, or what have you, and people ask… inevitably, the question comes up, "How do you do it all." Because I am disabled in multiple ways, physically and mentally, and somehow or another, we've got in our minds that disabled means unable. And it doesn't mean that at all. If anything, it means innovative, it means you figure out ways to do things differently, or you figure out how to be efficient. You prioritize better because you have to, it's not a matter of if you want to prioritize, it's if you don't prioritize, then you're going to be laid up in the bed for a week. So, you got to figure out like how you're going to do this thing.
And I don't know, being a part of the disability community helps you to see just how powerful disabled folks are. And we say this all the time in mental health, in general, right? If you sit around with a group of colleagues, and you're talking about how much of a privilege it is to sit, and watch, and participate in your client's growth, and seeing how they manage and overcome challenges in their lives. And it's a marvel. Like, to me, when I sit and I watch clients do some of the things that they do, and come to the conclusions that they come to, and I'm like, "My gosh, like I need to write that down."
And I have a book chapter coming out on how to be an anti-ableist clinician, which is coming out later on this summer in a book for mental health professionals on anti-blackness. And so, my chapter is on anti-blackness and disability.
And so, I talk about this story as a culmination of a couple of clients that I put together for this, but I talk about this story about a client who, they experienced this trauma at work where someone attacked them. And because they had a history of trauma, they had undiagnosed PTSD, you know, they got the PTSD diagnosis, when they came, it triggered them to the point where they couldn't return to the workplace.
And they managed to fight with their employer, it took them three years to fight with their employer to get a… what do you call it? They got awarded compensation for damages because their employer just let them go, when they should have followed the law, the ADEA law, which provides accommodation for folks who have something like PTSD.
But this person went through homelessness, in that time period, this person went through loss and grief in their own family. They had children, you know? So, it's like, there are people who are going through these processes and they're going through it because of our ableist society. And so, then, like, what are we doing as therapists to support that work that they're doing? And if we're not actively naming it, if we're not actively pointing it out, giving appropriate guidance, we're hindering. There is no like in-between where you're… there's no neutral in oppression. So, if you're not actively doing something to be anti-ableist, then you're just allowing ableism to just kind of go along and its flow as it exists. And for our clients, we're doing a disservice if we do that.
PATRICK CASALE: It's powerful. And it's great to highlight that that stuff is happening because I think, for some people that until you're really aware of this, or you're really in contact with situations that are that emotionally impactful, you don't really sweep it under the rug almost as if like, this is just a buzzword or like this is just being, what's the word I'm looking for? This is just exacerbated or like this is being blown out of proportion. And a lot of helpers are really guilty of being very performative and not actually putting into action the things that they talk about and preach.
And that's a lot of the times if you're like, "I'm an anti-oppressive practice owner, or I'm an anti-ableist, practice owner, or I'm pro ELM, or I'm pro…" Whatever, but then you're not doing anything to actually further knowledge and understanding, and an ally with a community at large. And I think that's problematic as well. And we could probably have a whole episode on that but…
JANELLE JOHNSON: Yes.
PATRICK CASALE: What I like that you're saying is this stuff is… this is real. And, you know, I appreciate you sharing and being vulnerable enough to do so. And I think that one thing that stands out to me is just what you said, like, how do I do it all? And what you mentioned is spot on because I myself I'm disabled. I mean, autism is a lifelong disabling condition.
JANELLE JOHNSON: It is.
PATRICK CASALE: And behind the scenes, it is but to people who don't know what goes on behind the scenes, it's like, "How do you put out so much? How do you create so much? How did you…" And I love that you name like you're basically almost creating, unfortunately, out of necessity, your own accommodation practices for self-preservation because it's the only fucking way-
JANELLE JOHNSON: Yeah
PATRICK CASALE: …that it will get done. And it is the only way that you can do it.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Yes, yes. I've said this many times over the past year or two. I think neurodivergent folk make excellent leaders. Most of the time, it's because of that, it's because we experience so much discrimination in the world that we recognize at an early age I knew already at 12 and 13, like, I had to own my business. I already knew… and it wasn't a matter of like, oh, you know, I want to be an entrepreneur.
But no, like, I want to own my own business so that I can like make my life work because me going to school every day I know that I have to put on this mask and try to function in order to, like, get by. And I'm getting by because I'm highly intelligent or twice-exceptional, but the other exceptionality of me is not being addressed at all. Everybody just sees how highly intelligent I am.
So, I'm just going to ride that wave, and I'm going to be super smart, and I'm going to be top of my class, or second in my class, or whatever. And I'm going to get accepted to a great university, and I'm going to do all those things. But I'm going to just kind of like, not deal with this whole other side of me, which is in this embodiment that's happening.
And it happens for a lot of us who grew up disabled, particularly, neurodivergent, or have an invisible disability, where it could be masked, where people don't have to necessarily know. And we develop all these issues because of it. And we have to, like, deal with when we get older, whether they're physical, or mental, or both, and unlearning, and all the things.
But like, think about the type of human that has gone through that process, the ability and the fortitude that that human has that other people don't know anything about because they didn't have to do any of that stuff, and then be a black or brown person on top of that. That's why black women are out here winning in business right now because, you know, there's something to be said about having to have gone through life with a degree of challenges that people didn't have to develop to great that other people don't have, and develop the ability to innovate that other people don't have as far as the way that they've experienced the world.
And right now the world is… we're living in a business climate where showing up as different is the thing. You're going to excel when you have innovation or perspective that's very different from other people. So, yeah, I don't know how I got on and off on all that either. But that's my business side coming out.
PATRICK CASALE: I think it's perfectly said. I think it's perfectly said in alignment with what we're talking about. And the acknowledgement that if you've grown up, and had to struggle, and had to pivot, and had to look at the world differently, and had to constantly be on the defense, having to constantly figure out alternative solutions to every single scenario it is hella exhausting. It's also unbelievably helpful in entrepreneurialship because the creativity, and the way that your brain is able to just see things in so many different outcomes and lenses, really lends itself to being able to, like you said, show up and be innovative, show up and be creative, make something that works for you. And I think that's what entrepreneurialship age is, is filling a void that you need, and work that works for your system, and your ability to show up every day. So, could not have said that better myself. And I appreciate you going off on that tangent.
So, I think that's a good a good end point for us because I think that is really something to digest as you're sitting here listening and thinking about what Janelle just offered. And really this whole conversation has been because you can have so many spin-off conversations from this topic. And I think this is a really important topic to continue to talk about. And I'll DM you, but I would love to have you on our other podcast all about neurodivergence and I think it would be a cool spin-off for that, too.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Sure.
PATRICK CASALE: But yeah, to everyone listening, I think this is something to continue to really think and expand upon because this is something that if you are a mental health professional, you're either a part of perpetuating, or you're a part of the suffering while also perpetuating in some ways. So, like it's very complicated. And there's a lot to unpack and unlearn. And I think that we can do ourselves a big service if we start to step back and really absorb a lot of what Janelle just talked about during this conversation.
So, I just want to thank you for coming on, and sharing some of your own story, and being really authentic. That's what we appreciate here and I really do appreciate you making the time.
JANELLE JOHNSON: Thank you, I appreciate you inviting me, and I 100% agree with you that the discussion on ableism is something that we'll be reckoning with for many, many years to come and there will be new iterations of it in the coming years, and it's vital for us to recognize even from an ethical standpoint, our ethics require us to be anti-ableist. You know, it's stuff that we just haven't ever explicitly named. And recognize the impact of choosing anti-ableism or not choosing it, or being indifferent to it. We haven't really just sat down and named it, discussed it, devoted ways to become anti-ableist in practice with your clients, and also, in business, in managing your practice itself, and how you build the structures on how if you're going to be a group practice owner, this is, especially, important because you're going to be thinking about how to create an environment that's anti-ableist for clinicians that you hire.
So, there's a lot to it and I'm happy to work with you, if you're interested in me coming to speak or coming to provide consulting, me and a couple of other folks in my practice, we do this consulting for folks nationwide. So, if you want to reach out to us, please do. I guess I can go ahead and say where. Please reach out to us at bridgesflc.com. Click on the orange Let's Connect button. And you can also reach us on social media. We're @Bridges_FLC on Insta, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And my professional handle is @thefamilyfanatic. And that's on LinkedIn, and Facebook, and Insta.
PATRICK CASALE: Awesome. And all of that information will be in the show notes so that you have easy access to all of what Janelle just mentioned and just really, really incredible stuff. We can have you back on and honestly, talk about strategies and tips to ensure that you're creating an anti-ableist practice setup and business structure.
So, thank you so much again for making the time and sharing all this wonderful information with everyone out there.
To everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice Podcast, all episodes are out every single week on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. You can follow All Things Private Practice on Insta. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. And we'll see you next week.
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