Episode 115: Amplifying Underrepresented Voices: The Journey Of A Black Neurodivergent Therapist [featuring Jessica Crunkleton]

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale. I'm joined today by Jessica Crunkleton. She is an LMFT, LCPC, CADAC II, all the acronyms in the world.

And today we are going to talk a little bit about what it's like for her own life experience both as a person of color and therapist of color in the EMDR training rooms, becoming a trainer, someone with ADHD. So, we're going to see where this conversation goes. And I'm really excited to have you on.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Glad to be here.

PATRICK CASALE: I really wanted to have you on because like your social media is so fun to follow. And it just cracks me up. Like, your posts, and your memes, and you're [CROSSTALK 00:01:39] constantly. So, I was like, "I got to reach out and see if she wants to come on."

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, you got to have fun with that. I think that's the name of the game is you got to have fun with it. The humor, I think, helps get through a lot of difficult things in life. So, I try to use that a lot, absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: Totally. So, tell the audience a little bit about who you are, and where you are, and what you do.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, so I'm Jessica Crunkleton. I am a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, addiction counselor, sandtray therapist, EMDR trainer in training, a whole bunch of stuff.

I'm located near St. Louis, Missouri. I have a private practice in O'Fallon, Illinois, and I specialize in trauma-informed attachment-based therapy for kid's, adults, couples, families, and groups. And I say, ADHD is my superpower. So, I love to mix it up. So, I work with a kid, and then a couple, and a family. And I really enjoy that. And I also do sandtray therapy with kids. But I also do it with clients of different ages.

And I'm also an area clinician for the Drug Enforcement Administration, the DEA. So, I do EAP services for them. So, I like to mix it up. I've got a bunch of different things going. Yeah, love it, love it, love it.

PATRICK CASALE: I was going to say before you said that, that that's a very ADHD bio of like, "Hey, I have all of these licenses, and credentials, and all of these interests. And I like to incorporate all of them into the mix."

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, because, again, for me, when I think about it, I only do stuff that's fun. Like, I'm not in it for the money even though I do, you know, well for myself. It's really about following your passion. And like, before I was with you, I was just doing consultation with people all over the US. I love this stuff. I love this. And it's great to be able to give back, to us our gifts, and so, yeah. And it's cool to be able to make money off of your gifts. So, I found a way to do that, created my own lane, and yeah, just, I'm diving in, and I'm living the dream.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that, yeah. And I do think it is fun when you're able to make money using your gifts, like you said it. Before we started recording, you were telling me a little bit about, you know, your ADHD diagnosis. And I was not expecting to have that conversation today. But I actually think it's an interesting one given my audience. And you were diagnosed early in childhood.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: I was diagnosed, yeah, probably by like eight or nine. I was already diagnosed, but there was some challenges, I think, with my mom acquiring the medicine or even accepting my diagnosis. So, I wasn't always medicated. And I had a really hard time. My handwriting was very sloppy, I remember, and just slowing down because my brain is going 100 miles an hour. And my desk was very messy. So, I was always one of those kids who, like, once a month we go for recess, they would tell us to keep our desk clean, and I never would so my desk always got dumped. So, that's part of my trauma story. But you know that was it.

And so I've struggled with, I think, lifelong acceptance of that type diagnosis. But I've really just kind of came to the place of, you know, I know I'm a strong black woman and I can do a lot of things, but this is one of those that I'm going to need help. So, getting medication, taking that regularly has been really helpful just to help me normalize and be myself. It's really helped me to be more focused. So, that was a difficult thing for me, just be accepting of that. But now I'm totally cool with it. So, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Sounds like you embrace it now, I think.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Really appreciate some of the benefit that comes with a brain that works differently. I think that so many business owners relate who are neurodivergent, whose brains are very creative, and moving very quickly, especially, when you're excited about something, and you're able to think outside the box. But I'm thinking about how traumatizing and shame-inducing it would be as a child to, like, be like, "Hey, we're going to dump your desk out in front of the class."

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, it can be very difficult when I think back on what it was like having ADHD as a child, especially, as a person of color there. It's almost like, either you're saying you're rational or you're crazy. Like, you're on the sixth floor, and you don't want to be like that. So, it's almost like, we didn't ever think back, we didn't really talk about the diagnosis. It was just like they knew I was really smart, but then I would struggle in certain ways. Like, I would do the assignment, it just wouldn't get turned in, you know? So, yeah, it was really difficult, and feeling like it was something wrong with me, you know, am I broken? Why is my brain not working like everyone else's? So, definitely, it's very difficult.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, very difficult. And, you know, I imagine as a young black child with ADHD, there were probably a lot of inaccurate labels that were placed upon you even before the diagnosis or after the diagnosis. And we-

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Oh, yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: …so often see the communities, the people of color, and women or female-identifying persons, and people in the queer communities who are misdiagnosed, and ADHD, and autism are missed constantly, because so much of the testing and research is really geared towards cishet white boys.

And so that journey as a child, it sounds like that was definitely a struggle. And you had mentioned before we started recording, even the acceptance around the medication component was really hard in the family system, because it's like, "Hey, I don't want to rely on this thing to help me show up, or we don't want to rely on the medication to make myself 'normal' in society."

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, and it's this thing of, I think, also, and I said it as a parent, my children who are neurodivergent, so we've also went through this journey as well. There's a point of, "Did I do something wrong?" Like, I think my mom went through that of, "What does it say, because if this happens to your child, obviously, you must have did something wrong." And I went through that as well even as a clinician, as like, "Oh, you know what? This is just my child's journey. I'm going to be supportive." But not focusing on that, but I think she struggled with that a bit more.

And so, yeah, there's all these things that you have to go through and kind of work through in your brain trying to make sense of what this is, what this means. And this is a lifelong thing. This is something I probably may have to take medicine the rest of my life, you know, to help me be functional in the way that I would like, so I can show up, and turn in all my paperwork, and all that, get paid for the great work that I actually do.

So, yeah, there's a lot that goes with that. But I think definitely, for me, in a place of acceptance, I'm here, I have an amazing, powerful brain. And that's why I feel like, you know, especially, with patterns of therapy, because I catch on to that all, you know, it just makes sense to me, because I can just study this all day and never get bored with it. So, there are benefits to it.

PATRICK CASALE: I love the reframe and I think that, you know, for our audience, there are a lot of neurodivergent people listening, because I also co-host the Divergent Conversations Podcast with Dr. Neff, and we talk about our own autistic ADHD journeys, and just the realities of like, what you just said, is actually, I've had a similar experience where my family members weren't exactly accepting at first of my autism diagnosis, because I think, again, like you said, it was like, "What did I do wrong? Like, what did I miss? What did I do wrong?" And that's certainly not what I want as an adult.

And I've learned really to accept and appreciate the way my brain works comparatively, instead of focusing on all the struggle areas all the time. And it sounds like a lot of this led to your passion, and journey, and desire to get into the EMDR training and consulting realm where you're helping people learn how to incorporate trauma modalities to work through a lot of these experiences that may have happened, either in life or through genetics, and intergenerationally.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Absolutely, yes. And I think, it was interesting, it was funny, when I first went to the EMDR training fair, first of all, I thought it was a scam, this is a little scammy, it sounds a little suspect, right? [CROSSTALK 00:09:14]. You can wave your fingers and that doesn't even sound right. Like, we're not even trained like that. We're trained to talk to somebody and they feel better.

But I would say, for me, as a clinician, I was in Gary, Indiana. That's where Michael Jackson was born, the family. There's a lot going on there. That's the space I was in. They had me all over six counties in Northwest Indiana, driving all over, seeing all these people. And I would notice when I was talking to them, they were not feeling better. For some of them, they would, and for others, the foster parents would say, "Hey, Jessica, can you please not talk about Johnny's mom this week, it's really hard for him, we have a hard time with him after you leave." And I was like, "There's got to be more out there."

So, I went to the EMDR training. And I was excited about it. But there was also this sense of nobody in this room looks like me. There's 16 people, they're all white. There was no videos of any person of color. I didn't know anybody that was a person of color doing EMDR. And you also have the people in Gary, a lot of them who I work with, they had Complex PTSD. I don't want to make this even worse.

So, honestly, for the first year of my EMDR training, I didn't use EMDR resourcing, because I was so afraid that I was going to mess somebody up, and it was going to be my fault, and I'm responsible for everything, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:10:28] negatively.

And also as a person of color, am I good enough to do this? I see my white colleagues and they can do it. But I don't know if I'm good enough, because I don't even see anybody that looks like me doing this modality. But thankfully, I was able to find my own EMDR therapist. We worked through a lot of this stuff, because I had done talk therapy, but never EMDR. We worked a lot of my trauma history, which that's what it was tied to, me feeling responsible for everything, me feeling like I wasn't good enough.

And once that was done, it was like the first year I did over 100 people, kids, teens, and adults. Everybody was getting EMDR. Maybe not standard EMDR, but contained or EMD. But I was helping all kinds of people. And you know, my African American clients, BIPOC, LGBTQI+, just all these populations, I was able to offer them hope. And so it was just a beautiful journey.

But yeah, it took me a long time to work through that and having the ADHD and finding structure. But that's also why I love EMDR, because it is structured, it has eight phases. And so I can see a video of somebody doing EMDR and I can tell you what phase they're in, because it is structured. But not so structured that you can have fun with it, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I imagine, one, the structure helps with an ADHD brain who needs some guidelines at times to kind of create accountability, and checks, and balances. I really want to hone in on that point you made the, like, being one of only 16 and not seeing anyone that looks like you. Like, this is not an uncommon experience. We're certainly seeing more rooms of people of color who are participating in trauma modalities, trauma training, stuff like that. But I have a very close friend who I was talking to you about before who experiences this still consistently and whose ideas are not always taken seriously, who has to pick and choose, like, "When do I want to really share my perspective on this modality versus when do I want to just shrink back, and like, just not participate, because I know how it's going to be received?"

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, that's a tough one. And I think I went through that as well. But I think, I remember we were having trainers meeting. And I'm looking around and most of them are white or older 20, 30 more years experienced than me. And I was like, "I don't even know if I should be here. I don't know if I belong." But then as I did my own EMDR work, and then I would go back to the minutes, and I'm like, "Oh, there's my friend such and such, and there's such and such."

And I realized, even though I'm in my 40s, some of them might be in their 60s, the life experience that I bring to the table, the story that I have, the gifts that I have, that contributes so much. And so looking at myself through that lens, and what I've realized is that, you know, you can't contribute if you don't talk, if you don't speak up. So, I'm not going to let any of those things stop me from speaking up. I'm just going to, you know, what do they say? Fake it till you make it or whatever I got to do. I'm going to get in the conversation because that's part of the reason. If I'm not here, then not only does my voice not get heard, but all these people I represent their voices doesn't get heard. That means things don't change.

So, I have to speak up and I've noticed that people really appreciate it and they do listen. So, I think you just have to get in there even if that means maybe someone's not going to like me, I'm going to ruffle some feathers. So, I don't want to do the group thing. I'm going to get out there and say, "Hey, wait a minute. I think, especially, as someone with ADHD before you make this change, or as a neurodivergent person, or as a person of color, I want you to consider blah blah blah." Because there may not be anyone else at the table saying that, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. And I believe that advocacy at its purest form is showing up, and speaking up, and kind of laying that groundwork, especially, when there are not people who are doing those things. So, I really, really applaud that. And I think that's so crucial.

And it sounds like it's really allowed you to kind of have a completely different perspective shift in the work that you do these days. Like, there's obviously a ton of passion behind all of the different projects you've got going on.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, I think again, the more I've shown up as myself, the more I found people who embrace it. Are there's some that don't. Yes, I've run into that. I've run into people who say… You know, once I heard someone say that I was aggressive. And for a moment, I paused and I thought about it. And I was like, "That's not true. That's not my stuff, that's their stuff."

And so I do think as you step forward, because I think coming from my childhood, and the trauma, my score is like a nine or 10, it's really high. So, the way I got through it sometimes was to strike myself just to be quiet. You don't say too much, you keep your head down, stay low, even though I was, honestly, quite gifted. But I just wanted to keep low, just keep a low profile, that way I don't upset anybody.

And what I found is that was robbing me of sharing my gifts and being my whole self. So, now, I show up, I have my big hair, I got my glasses, I got my outfits, I wear my braids, I show up as me. This is who you're going to get. Whether you love it or you hate it, I'm going to be me. I'm going to show up and be me. And I found that the more I'm willing to show up and be me, and to be authentic, the more others are willing around me to do the same thing.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, it kind of allows people to take up more space, gives permission to say, "Hey, you can do this, you can show up authentically."

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: And you deserve to be there. And I'm not just at the table, because I used to fear will people think I'm just here because I'm black? That's not it at all. My credentials are impeccable. I work extremely hard. Everything that I got was none of this was handed to me. I'm a first-generation college graduate, I come from the projects, no father in the hall. By the time I was 25, I have four kids, never been married, by four different men. There's a whole lot to that.

But I found a way, even living in the projects to still go to school, to still do what I needed to do when people told me, "Oh, you're not going to do you, you're just go into school for money, to find a way to find funding to pay for my education, to do all these things."

And so I'm not going to let what some people think about me or believe about me to stop me. I'm there for a reason. I have something to contribute. And people really appreciate that. Maybe they don't like it at first, but usually when they think about, like, "You know what? Maybe Jessica is right." Or you know, I'd be willing to listen to others too.

So, I think you just have to show up. We have to find a way to be authentic. And if you can't do that within that space, then you need to go find a space or create a space where you can.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. I think that is a just really, really powerful statement for all of you listening. And it brings me to another point, you know, when we're starting to think about, you mentioned a couple of times now, I felt like I didn't belong, I felt like I'm not qualified enough, I'm not good enough. That was my own stuff coming up.

But ultimately, like, a lot of this impostor syndrome that is experienced by, especially, people of color is like, this is all rooted in colonialism and racism, right? So, like, it has nothing to do with your credentials, or your experience, your expertise. It's just like, this society was founded in a way that was not conducive to having people of color in the room. And it makes so much sense why you would sit there initially and look at those 15 other faces and be like, "I don't fucking belong here. Like, what's happening? I don't think I'm qualified enough." When in reality, you're more than qualified enough.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Absolutely. And also, you have to remember I came from South I'm from Arkansas. The Ku Klux Klan headquarters is two hours away from my hometown, literally. And I was always taught, do not be there after dark. It was Sun Downtown. And so when you grow up in that whole environment, the way that I grew up, there was actually never… I remember I talked to some my friends in grad school and I asked them, "You know, what was the plan for your life." Their plans was always to include college. That's what their parents had planned for them.

There was no plan for me to go to college. The highest I was expected was maybe to work at the chicken plant, OK Foods, which is in my hometown area. That was the most that was expected of me. And so I tried that path. I was like, "I really don't like this. This is hard. It's a lot of work with your hands. This ain't me." And then I tried school twice, failed out, it didn't work. And then I said, "I'm going to try it one more time." I got these babies. We got to make it. This is [INDISCERNIBLE 00:22:10]. I got to do this. I got to do it.

Third time was a charm. But yeah, it is very much this sense of, I just got to figure out how to do this. I'm going to figure out a way to make my way and I don't care who doesn't like it or who doesn't agree with me. I'm just going after it and I deserve to be here. I deserve the spot. I fought for this. So, that really had to come from internal versus having this sort of team of people in the beginning to, "Yes, you can do it." And all of that. I didn't have that. I didn't have that.

PATRICK CASALE: So, that's powerful, because it sounds like having to resource within yourself a lot of the time and really dig into that strength that you've always had.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, and it was there. It was there generationally. There were things that my family members have told… my grandmother was 91 when she died. There was so many stories of things that she had to overcome being from the south. My grandmother was illiterate. We never talked about that as a family but she was. She was very proud of me and the things that I accomplished and encouraging me to move forward.

But there also was this sense of, yeah, as a black woman, and this is sometimes people of color and in I think different groups experiences, now I'm educated. Okay, but now am I like white people? Am I bougie? "Oh, now you educated? Oh, you bougie now. You're not like us."

So, there's this whole deal that it really can… it's like a mindfuck, it really messes with you, of who am I? And now I didn't quite fit in my own community, I felt like in some ways, because I liked these certain things, and they didn't like them. And now I really get into books and getting educated, now they're really telling me I don't belong, but then, you know, who am I? What am I?

And there was a whole journey with that and trying to figure out who I am, and how I show up in the world. And I feel like I've gotten to that place. But it's really hard. A lot of people of color, I think, struggle with that of, okay, now you're educated, which is great, but now you can't relate to us in the hood.

And I always tell people, I'm from the project. That's where I came from, it will always be a part of me. You can't take that away from me. That's a part of me. And no matter how many credentials I have, I'm always had that, and very proud of that. And I never hide it. But I don't have to stay there now. I'm growing, I'm going to keep growing. But I might try to help bring you all with me, but I'm going to keep growing, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. That's another powerful statement too. And you're also talking from a place of like being multiply marginalized, right? Like so, a black woman who's also neurodivergent. Like, so there's these pockets where it's like, where the identity and the forming of identity is constantly being questioned of like, where do I belong? Where do I fit in? And it sounds like doing a lot of introspection, and just work along the way, and having a lot of acceptance for all parts of yourself. And showing up as authentically as you can.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, I think that that was hard. And also for me coming from like a Christian background, struggling with sexuality. So, I'm married to a man, love my husband, and all that, but I am attracted to others. I identify as pansexual. And I would say that was hard to, in fact, I don't think I've ever really, yeah, I don't know if I'm… like my husband knows, the family members know, but even with that, who am I? Like, how does that show up? I'm I going to hell? Like, all these things, because of where you come from and how that shows up. So, I think yeah, all these things have been a journey in trying to figure all that out. So, yeah, absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I think that your story is a powerful one. And I hope that, to those of you listening, just hearing that you can fight through some of this stuff when you don't have a lot of people in your corner, you can certainly find that extra gear, that strength to pull yourself out if you want to pursue your passions. It sounds like your passions were always going to take you elsewhere, outside of the [INDISCERNIBLE 00:26:07] for sure.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And it's wonderful to see that, because I think we need to see more people showing up authentically, especially, in spaces where it is dominated by cishet white men or women. And I really do believe that like, I know, when my wife's looking for a therapist in Asheville, scroll through page after page after page, and there are no therapists who look like her, and that's demoralizing. And I think it's just really wonderful to start seeing people showing up in spaces and taking up space.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah. And we belong there. And I think that was a struggle for me in grad school. The grad school I went to was John Brown in Siloam Springs, Arkansas, awesome grad school, great program. But I think I was one of like two black people in my cohort and my son came later. But I remember in our group therapy class, you had to pick a topic and mine was being a black woman and worrying would white people, would clients, would they want to see me? Would that be an issue?

And my colleagues who were all white, they said, "Well, Jessica, we don't see you as a black woman. We just see you as a great student." And at the time, I remember thinking, "Well, that's great, but then now let's just think about it. But I am a black woman. You have to see that part of me. You have to see me as a black woman."

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: In order to see me, you got to see that part of me too and not just [CROSSTALK 00:24:23]-

PATRICK CASALE: That's very dismissive of your own identity and experience too, right? To say like, "Yeah, well, we just see you as a student." But in reality, society, when looking at your profile picture is going to identify, basically, like what you look like a lot of the times. So, it's-

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Well, and I think there was something to that we don't talk about. Like, there's this color blindness thing. And that's something that, I think, I overcome all the time as I'm doing my consultation calls. We talk about race, identity, sexual orientation, gender, all these things as I'm talking about class. I want to know all that, because we can't treat everybody cisgender white, heterosexual male, that's not it. So, we have to be more open to acceptance of people, absolutely, however, they show up, absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: I love of this conversation. And really, the takeaway I'm kind of getting out of it is the all parts thing. Like, just really loving all parts of yourself and embracing all parts of yourself, all parts of your identity, and showing up as authentically as you can, because that's transcendent, and has a ripple effect. It has an effect that goes beyond the one-on-one therapy room, that goes beyond the one-on-one consultation.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Absolutely. I definitely think it's important to show up with all parts of you, being able to be fully who you are. But that is certainly a journey I think we all go through in life.

And some people don't get there. They don't ever get to really be the authentic who they are. And so that's one of the things I really love about my journey is in spite of all the shit that I went with childhood and all those things that I get to be me. And I am unapologetically me. I show up, this is who I am, I am in a larger body, but you know, sometimes people talk about that as well. But I feel I'm a beautiful black woman just as I am. And you know, maybe I'll get smaller someday, who knows? Maybe I won't. But however I show up, I'm still beautiful. I'm still smart. I'm still important, all those things.

And I think as I'm working with my clients, that's definitely something that that I work with them on to embrace themselves fully, because I noticed a lot of people struggle with that as well. And in my consulting calls that I do for EMDR, helping the consultants work through those same barriers to show up as themselves, to help the clients do the same thing, absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. And I think that's a really powerful statement to kind of wrap up on and I hope that everyone who listened can really absorb some of Jessica's energy and what she's putting out into the world, because it's really, really powerful and very, very necessary. Also, I just realized you have to like a little gizmo doll? Is that a-

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Oh, yeah. Gizmos here, we got gizmo. He helps out with sessions and also ETs up there. And then we got a little fake dog over here. This is Evany. She gives me no problems. Amazing [CROSSTALK 00:30:08]-

PATRICK CASALE: I have these dogs who are fighting each other in front of my seat right now and I'm trying to [CROSSTALK 00:30:31]-

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Oh, okay, cool, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:30:33].

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: She is house-trained. She just kind of sits up there and looks pretty. So, yeah, they all get along. And then we got [PH 00:30:39] Rudo over on this side. Yeah, we got all kinds of stuff here, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: This is a... when I get deep dives into, like neurodivergent folks is like office spaces and get to see all their, like, special interests behind them, and I think it's really lovely. Like, all behind me is like Hobbit stuff, Game of Thrones stuff, Anthony Bourdain stuff. There's Lord of the Rings stuff all over my office. So-

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I want to see these behind-the-scenes things now that we're all like working remotely.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah. And I found that it can be really helpful for me, because I look at my happy place pillow, but also my clients and consultants are like, "Wait a minute, is that a gizmo?" And I'm like, "Yes." And they're like, "That is freaking awesome. Can I have him?" "No, you can't have gizmo. He hangs out here, he lives here. You'll get something like it, but yeah, you can't have gizmo. He stays here, yeah."

PATRICK CASALE: It's a good jumping-off point too when you have these, like, shared special interests, because it really does create a layer of lessened vulnerability. Like, people will ask me about this painting over here. It's a picture of the Hound and Arya from Game of Thrones with my face and my wife's face on it. And it's ridiculous and I love it.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: [CROSSTALK 00:31:45]

PATRICK CASALE: …first of all, all the time, so…

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, it's pretty awesome. I love it. And then also, you know, I'm not like this stuffy shrink who's like looking down my nose. I'm a fun person. I'm just like anybody else. We're just here to help people with problems. So, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that, too. Jessica, thank you so much for coming on and just sharing your story and so much great advice, and support, and wisdom. If you have anything you want to share with the audience, where they can find you, if they want to work with you, any of that stuff.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Yeah, if you are on LinkedIn, you can find me on LinkedIn, Jessica Crunkleton, I'm on there. I'll accept your request to join. I'm on Facebook. I have a Facebook page. I'm on Instagram and TikTok, Resource Queen 1913. Shout out to Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, that's my sorority.

Anyway, yeah, so you can find me on there. And I'm on Psychology Today. I think I have unaccepted people, but I will start accepting new clients September the first. I'm going to start accepting a new round. So, I know some people… and I'm on Therapy For Black Girls. So, yeah, September 1st I'll be opened up to accept some new people.

And I'm always looking at if you're interested in doing EMDR consultation. If you're looking to complete basic training, I work with EMDR consulting, and I'm thinking, hopefully, by next year, I'll be able to do my own training. So, I'm excited about that. Definitely going to have a diverse team, because I think that is so important. But in the meantime, I do, do some coaching for others and some training. So, yeah, those are some spaces that you can find me, so definitely please reach out. I'd love to hear from you.

PATRICK CASALE: Love that. Lots of different interests going on behind the scenes. So, love that as well. All of Jessica's information will be in the show notes so you all have easy access to links and information in case you do want to pursue working with her in any capacity that she just mentioned. Thanks again for coming on and sharing your story. I really appreciate your time.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Thanks for having me, Patrick.

PATRICK CASALE: And to everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice Podcast, new episodes are out every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week.

JESSICA CRUNKLETON: Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: Thanks, Jessica.