Episode 116: The Entrepreneurial Journey: Boundaries, Balance, and Building a Successful Practice [featuring Kathryn Esquer and Allie Joy]

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale. I'm joined by two amazing guests today, Kathryn Esquer, the founder of The Teletherapist Network, predominantly found on Instagram, really amazing resource. She's been on the podcast before. Singing your praises all the time, Kathryn, she was the one who created this amazing, also, a clinical psychologist and a co-host of I'm I A Bad Therapist podcast.

And then Allie Joy, who is an LPC, and also a certified art therapist, and the other co-host of the I'm I A Bad Therapist podcast, which I had the honor of being on a couple weeks ago. And I'm really happy to have you both on here. Man, I think I maybe didn't mess it up, but I maybe did.

ALLIE JOY: Thanks, Patrick. No, all good.

KATHRYN ESQUER: Yeah, sounds good. Thank you for having us.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you're welcome. So, today, we are going to talk about just being entrepreneurial mental health professionals, and also how to set boundaries in your businesses, and with your personal lives, because I think the two really blend together so often, especially, when we're in creation mode, especially, when we're making pushes and launches, and really trying to figure out a way to monetize your creation.

So, Kathryn and Allie both have a lot going on. And tell me a little bit about kind of how you two have come together, created your podcast, and then we'll kind of get into everything else.

ALLIE JOY: Well, we have a very funny origin story that we always share. So, Kathryn and I met through The Teletherapist Network, also rebranding into The Therapist Network. Of course, so we had met there initially, because I had wanted to offer like a masterclass, a seminar. And we kind of got to know each other. And I actually had a dream that we started a podcast. I didn't really know Kathryn beyond our like more casual-

KATHRYN ESQUER: Emails, probably.

ALLIE JOY: …colleague relationship.

KATHRYN ESQUER: Yeah.

ALLIE JOY: Yeah, and I just sent her a message. And I was like, "Hey, I had this dream. What are your thoughts about starting a podcast?" And that's literally how we got there.

KATHRYN ESQUER: And I'm all about that kind of stuff. Anything that feels aligned or dreamy to me I am running towards. So, as soon as I got that message, I was like, "Yes. I've tried to start a podcast in the past and it didn't work out. It probably didn't work out because you weren't here yet." So, we kind of had this serendipitous, I guess, formation. And no, we started the creation process.

PATRICK CASALE: So, how's that journey been so far with becoming co-hosts? And obviously, it sounds like becoming business partners, in terms of like, hey, this feels really aligned for us, because I've done episodes before with partnerships like Kate and Katie from Private Practice Startup came on, and we talked about the struggle areas of partnerships, not so much the really enjoyable areas of partnerships, because I think that also gets overlooked. So, how's that been going so far?

KATHRYN ESQUER: Yeah, I feel like it does really-

PATRICK CASALE: I like that you're both pausing to like look at each other and be like, "Who takes this question?"

ALLIE JOY: Yeah.

KATHRYN ESQUER: We're used to podcasting.

ALLIE JOY: Yeah, so we always tend to do our like nonverbal cues, of course, as therapists. But I feel like it actually ties back really well to our topic of boundaries, because I think Kathryn and I, at least I feel this way, I feel like we have worked hard to communicate our boundaries to each other and I think to modify them as we go. And even we've talked about recently, like, it's easy to get into that flow, right? Or kind of, like, have things going on autopilot, which can be good in some points, but then also, we, I think, have realized the importance of continuing to make sure we're on the same page, that we're really meeting each other's boundaries, that we're feeling good with things.

So, I think for me, just that transparency of communication, even though it makes me uncomfortable, like just not with Kathryn, but just in general, it can be hard right to say like, "Hey, how are our boundaries doing?" I think that's for me been really, really helpful in our whole journey of the podcast.

KATHRYN ESQUER: And to further that, I think that our boundaries, just with any person in any relationship, they've changed over the past two and a half years we've created the podcast and two and a half years, two years, it's been a while.

ALLIE JOY: Like, almost two years.

KATHRYN ESQUER: Almost two years. Feels longer, jeez. But yeah, our boundaries change. Like, Allie and I have both been through different seasons of life over the past few years as any would be. And, you know, it's a different type of boundary when you have a business partnership, because you do have to respect those life boundaries. And they do come into the business. And so it's been a learning experience, I think, for both of us in terms of checking in and recognizing that they're going to change, and they're going to change for one of us, and maybe not the other, or both of us at the same time. And it's a constant state of flow with our boundaries. And yeah, it's been a journey, a personal journey, too, because it makes you reflect on your own boundaries and what works and doesn't work for you.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's really well said. I think that we're constantly re-evaluating those things. And when they're starting to bleed over, it can start to build resentment and frustration in partnerships. And it's good to be able to be really clear and transparent initially, and right off the bat.

I can relate in that way where I have a podcast that I co-host and I also have a business partnership where I host my retreats. And it's been really important to just be really clear upfront about these are the hours I probably am going to work, this is how I best communicate, this is how I best receive feedback, etc.

And I think you have to have those conversations. And so many people shy away from them, because it's like, this feels really uncomfortable. And this even bleeds over into, we're not talking about partnerships and businesses, we're talking about, like, just business, in general. And being a therapist and owning a practice. Like, I know how easy it is to see the email come in at 7:00 PM and be like, "Whew, I could answer that in like a minute."

But I think it's just so important to set up consistency for yourself to have that light switch that you can flick when you're done with work, you're done with work, because it's so easy to like, really just get sucked into being working all the time, especially, as remote like, online telehealth providers and business owners, it's really easy to say like, I can just go upstairs to my office and turn the computer on. It's not that hard.

KATHRYN ESQUER: Allie, this reminds me of your laptop.

ALLIE JOY: Yes, this is very relevant. It was actually, I think, about a year ago now, where I felt that exact way of like I kind of had like a mini breakdown over where I felt like I was working all the time. And I felt like the only things I talked about in my personal and professional life related back to either therapy or my business. And I felt very, like, almost isolated, and lonely, and exhausted. And so, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I need to, like, pull back and re-establish my boundaries. Like, what I want my life to look like."

And like Kathryn mentioned, I had a laptop that I've always worked on. And I had my setup in my office, but I would find myself having it on my lap on the couch every night. Like, after dinner, if I was hanging out with my husband, we'd like put something on, almost every night, I would pull it out and end up just doing something. And I realized for me, that was not great.

And I [INDISCERNIBLE 00:08:05] my self-control. I was like, "Okay, laptops got to go." And Kathryn and her husband, actually, we talked a lot about it. And Cisco gave me the push, I ended up getting like a full desktop setup. I got a Mac Mini. That article, Kathryn, really pushed me to get it and it worked out so well for me, because now I have to consciously make the choice to go into my office. I can't just have the laptop sitting, you know, in my living room. And for me, that has been a huge help. It like forces me, because, again, coming into my office and sitting down like those like 10 steps makes me think and I'm like, "What am I doing? I don't want to be doing this right now. It's late." Or whatever it is. So, for me, that was a really big helpful transition.

And then also with Kathryn at that stage, I think I had said like, I'm turning my phone off, like, every platform so like after this time I can't go on. I remember the first time I answered an email in the morning Kathryn was like celebrating it. She's like, "I'm so happy you answered this in the morning, not at night."

PATRICK CASALE: I love that.

KATHRYN ESQUER: Yeah, and Allie about your journey, because Allie went through that last year. And that was a really good model just to witness, because I then this year really was purposeful about scheduling time off and being thoughtful around my boundaries of emotional work. So, as a mom to two, I think I was not giving myself respect or setting internal boundaries around the emotional work of being a parent and a therapist.

And so getting really clear, I had hours, I knew my work hour boundaries, I knew email boundaries. I was very good with the concrete boundaries, but that emotional labor, that drain that I didn't have anything left over for myself at the end of the day, that was my boundary struggle this year.

And so watching Allie go through the time and the laptop, it really helped me think more critically about where I was struggling and how I could set myself up better for boundaries around work.

And I think, I don't know if I would have gotten there without Allie going through that. And I think that's, you know, unseen or not recognized benefit of business partnerships, you have an inspiration right next to you going through a parallel journey.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that too. And for Allie's sake, I think the intentionality behind buying a desktop and then you have to be very strategic in how you use it, right? You have to actually think about it. It's no more like mindless just have a laptop attached to you all the time, because it becomes like this extension of you in a way because you're just like, it's so easy to just turn it on, open it up, be on it working on whatever. And I think that is so intentional to just say like, well, if I want to be on it, I have to actually think about going and starting it up or sitting down at the actual desktop. Actually, I haven't seen a desktop talk in like over a decade, by the way. So, that's pretty cool.

ALLIE JOY: Yeah, it was an interesting setup. It felt weird, because like we say, like, we're used to being so portable, of like, yeah, sometimes, sure, I would love to have a laptop and maybe like, I don't know, go work at Starbucks or something. But again, it makes me be so much more intentional. And it worked out really well. But it felt so strange. Even like the mini, like, nuances of setting up even like podcasting of like not on a laptop, all of these things, it's funny how I used to, like you're saying, like, extension of ourselves, I think we can have some times.

PATRICK CASALE: And it also allows for like a very literal transition point from like, when I get up from this setting, I'm no longer working in this capacity. So, I really like that. Kathryn, you mentioned having to create techniques, strategies, or ways to have emotional boundaries. So, can you tell us a little bit about like what-

KATHRYN ESQUER: I said that, really?

PATRICK CASALE: …you would kind of put into place in order to be able to better recharge and be the best version of you.

KATHRYN ESQUER: For me, I'm pretty good with boundaries when I'm able to recognize I need them. So, for me, it was the awareness. Once I'm able to clearly sit down and identify the problem, I really like getting to root cause and working through it. So, that wasn't a problem. I think I was just on, what Allie mentioned earlier, it was like autopilot, I was on autopilot of just giving, giving, giving, and not recognizing that boundaries are not just around time, and production, and hours. They're around you, and your emotional, and your creativity, and your energy, and who you are.

So, for me it was the awareness. And then from there, I just put up really concrete boundaries around work, around texting. Similar to what Allie said, like putting some phone limitations on, changing some settings, putting on, what's it called? Screen time. Things like that have helped me really preserve my energy for those around me, which is what I want to do.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. That also seems like there's a lot of intentionality once you have the awareness of where you need to be intentional. And for the three of us, we all have different ventures, we've created different things for the last couple of years, as so many people have during this, like, COVID era. I don't know what we're going to call it in five years. But I think that a lot of us have spent a lot time in creation mode, because we didn't have a lot else to do. And we were like, "Oh, we're in our houses. And we can just be working from anywhere. And that frees up commute time and everything else."

And I want to transition into that. So, you know, boundary setting is definitely the foundation for all these creations and ventures to run optimally, because, without the boundaries in place that's where things start to bleed over, that's where, you know, burnout starts to really build out, that's where we start to see irritation, and frustration, and even depression.

So, tell me about what you all are doing, because this podcast is really meant to inspire people as well as talking about the hard times, and validate them, and normalize them. But you all have created a lot. And I think it's really important for mental health professionals who are just starting out to know that the world is much bigger than just one-on-one 60-minute increments of time.

KATHRYN ESQUER: Oh, that's a big one where to start?

ALLIE JOY: Yeah. Well, I can say something I've learned from Kathryn, actually, in this partnership is Kathryn is amazing at automations and workflows. And it has inspired me so much outside of our podcast, because I learned so much from Kathryn and these amazing skills she has, because I think it helped me recognize and we've talked about this in other ways, too, in the podcast of like the slow drain of like, the little tasks in the moment, it's not that big. But when everything kind of adds up and you look back on it, it's like, "Oh, well, I only did a couple of little things." But they can really add up.

So, seeing Kathryn skill at automating things and really putting these workflows into place has not only made, I think, really the podcast possible, I can't imagine it without all of that foundation work that Kathryn did. But also I've translated that and tried to really utilize it in my other businesses that I have. And so that has been a huge inspiration for me and I think, like we talked about that awareness piece, like really recognizing that all those little things add up. And if you can make it, do it. So, you can make it automate it, if you can set yourself up, have a better workflow, and really, I think, too for us, like reanalyzing, our workflows has been important of like, okay, we've been doing this for a while. Is it actually working? Can we change it? Can we make it easier? Like, where is it getting stuck?

And I think, again, that's helped us so much in the podcast, and I noticed myself in so many other areas of my life using that and it makes it feel possible to have all those things running like, hopefully, concurrently.

KATHRYN ESQUER: And to reflect on the process of like how we have both grown from each other, burnout's really dangerous, because it makes you isolated, you feel isolated, and the one of the best ways, one of the solutions is to not be isolated. So, it's like you feel stuck, you have to keep on this hamster wheel of isolation or else you're going to, I don't know, the feared outcome happens. And it's really about connection, and seeing other people, and getting inspired by other people.

And I think Allie and I think are hopefully doing a good job showing that we're very similar in some ways, but we're also really different and we really celebrate what we each bring to the table and try and learn from each other. Like, I know that, you know, we have different skill sets, and that one of us is stronger than the other in certain areas. But it's really fun to help the other one try and learn alongside each other. And that to me is the remedy to burnout, it's connection.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and that's what I was so impressed with when you and I first connected a couple of years ago when I was taking a look at what you've created, because I was like, "Wow, this is truly a way to combat isolation is if you have easy access to connection with people who are experiencing similar day-to-day life experiences or professional struggles." And I think that is so helpful and validating in normalizing, because in this profession, it can be so isolating, you can feel so siloed, and you can go through your day without talking to another human being who maybe is not a client, and that can feel so depleting, then you need to have that recharge period, and that place where you can connect, and just have support, and walk alongside each other.

I also think, you know, Allie made a good point about optimization and workflow, because I think maybe it's just because so many mental health professionals who become business owners didn't have any business training, probably more so than most entrepreneurial professions and [INDISCERNIBLE 00:19:53] is that it's like drinking out of a firehose a lot of the time. Like, I think most people these days are just like just chaos, where it's just like, "Okay, I do this, then I do this, and then I do this. And then simultaneously I answer this request."

And also, like you said, the little things become big things, the little things become problem areas, because that's when your executive functioning takes a hit, that's where your responsivity takes a hit, that's where like, your ability to regulate your nervous system really takes a hit. And all of a sudden, you're like, I have created this business that I thought was going to bring me joy, and excitement, and freedom. And instead, I feel trapped, or I feel like I've dug myself this hole that I have a really hard time getting out of.

KATHRYN ESQUER: I think one of the things that's most missed when we think about designing our businesses is that our experience in the business is going to be reflected in the outcome. So, if we are scattered, anxious, nervous, terrified, safe, feeling loved, feeling supported, those are all going to translate not only into the business culture, if you have employees, but it's also going to translate into your product and what you're delivering, the service or product you're delivering.

So, that's one thing Allie and I were really strategic, maybe it was my pushing, but I wanted to be really strategic about when coming up with a podcast is we really sat down and outlined systems and to me, systems is the foundation for culture of whatever you're building.

And so we really sat down and thought about what's the workflow? What's the, you know, listener experience going to be like? What's the guest experience going to be like? How can we make this a good experience for us? Which I think is the most important thing when building a business. If you can't enjoy running it, what are you doing?

So, I mean, when you say that I nod. But Patrick, I can't relate to that, because I've really tried. And yes, I've missed the mark and periods of my life, but from day one, and almost everything I've built, I've really tried to put my enjoyment of it at the forefront, maybe not always the forefront, but up there.

PATRICK CASALE: It's really interesting when you say, "I'm nodding, but I can't relate." I don't want to say that you're probably in the minority, but you might be a minority in some degrees. Like, I see so many people… No and I'm happy for you for that. I just see so many people who have tried, but just didn't have the systems in place, or really underestimated the importance of the systems. And I agree with you, I think systems are foundational. So, I think like, that's just how my brain works. So, I go into everything trying to be very proactive, and think about all of the outcome, sometimes to a detriment.

But I just see, like, even in my Facebook group, we have 10,000 therapists now. Like, we have a lot of members. And there's just a lot of chaos upon startup, because I think, again, coming back to grad school, for the most part didn't really talk to you about owning a small business in the mental health career path. And it's really a shame, because as the three of us sit here, like we can really easily say to the world, like there's so much we can do with the skill sets that we have, and there's really a lot that we can offer if you learn how to be strategic, if you learn how to follow that passion, and align it, and make sure that it feels like everything feels really consistent for you. And I think that's really the hidden way of what you're saying too.

ALLIE JOY: I feel like it was really helpful to like when we started, because I think it's easy in any business or anything you're starting, when you have that fire, like that creative energy, like you're so excited, you want to run, you want to get it going, right? Like, you want to get to that just like, "I want to do it." But I think something with the podcasts and I have definitely tried to do in my own businesses, and again, I feel so inspired by Kathryn and her background with her MBA and everything, like, we took our time. We sat down and like went through, like Kathryn was saying, these systems. We talked about things, we had a long, long document we were working from. We met multiple, multiple times every month-

KATHRYN ESQUER: Months, months.

ALLIE JOY: Months planning the start of our podcast. And I feel like that helped our success in our journey so much, because it's, you know, people start podcasts and you go for it. And that can be great. But I think for us in reflecting on our journey of like, just really being so intentional, taking your time, and setting it up, and like Kathryn's saying, trying to set yourself up for success and enjoyment, I think made a really big difference.

And even in other businesses that I have, some things I have like projects that kind of, you know, came up through something else, but I do notice the ones that I didn't spend that time on like taking my time and setting it up. Now, later. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, now I have to go back and do all of these different things." Because I hit the ground running and I was so excited, but now it's not operating well.

So, I think again, reflecting especially on a podcast journey, that time that we took, like we were so ready, we were so excited, and that's still carried through that. But I really Just think that set us up to like really launch with such a strong like foundation to it, really clear message, and ideas. Like our sound setup I think was really great. And all of those things makes such a big difference.

PATRICK CASALE: That's really important, and that's a great message for all listening, is just that intentionality, can't talk today. And I think that shows in the work that you're putting out there and the product that you're delivering. And it is easier, right? Like, to hit the ground running, and be really excited, and to have like that rush of ideas, and to really follow that. And I think that can be great. But I also do think there's another side to that, right? Like, where you follow that and really get into it, and then all sudden, your batteries start to fade away, because you're so invested in it, or you don't take that like zoomed out perspective to take a look at everything.

And I think that's great advice to really strategize really get intentional, to really be specific, get your steps out, get your processes out. And that goes not just for private practice owners, that's for podcasting, a coaching program that you want to launch, an event that you want to host. Like, that's what I see a lot of people struggle with is giving themselves the runway to have everything set up in a place opposed to just being like, "All right, I'm interested, I'm going for it." And all of a sudden, it's like the lighting itself.

So, with that being said, you know, you all have created the podcast, it's obviously very successful. You've been doing it for almost over two years. That's pretty incredible, because it's another area where I think the average length of a podcast is less than six months, because consistency is key. Can you speak to that as a partnership and how that works for both of you?

KATHRYN ESQUER: That was something we actually talked about during our planning phase. And we recognized that we need to continue to put what we create out into the world, and we need to do it consistently, and consistently for a long time. And I think both of us had that awareness going into it right, Allie?

ALLIE JOY: Oh, yeah, definitely. I think it's interesting too thinking about different media types, right? Like, my husband is very into, he's like a musician, he does live sound production and things. And I feel like that has helped me grow my awareness, because in a world where things go viral so quickly, it feels like everything is so fast-paced, like you can have that, like great start sometimes. But also thinking about, like certain mediums like podcasting, and different things like growing on YouTube. Like those can often be a lot like slower grow, but with that consistency, over time, it really can be worth it and get you there. So, even if, you know the first couple episodes or things like that aren't, you know, having thousands of downloads, it doesn't mean that it's not going to work. You just really need to have that consistent push.

PATRICK CASALE: I agree. And that's one thing I've seen Kathryn with you in your Instagram developing your following, because you've always been very consistent with how you've shown up. And I think that makes huge difference in terms of not just building following, but the know, like, and trust factor in knowing like Kathryn's going to be consistent, she's going to show up, this is who she is, this is what she believes in, and this is her business model, this is her idea. I think that really makes a big difference from the people who maybe start out, they're really excited, and it doesn't go well right away, and that also like fades away.

KATHRYN ESQUER: Yes. I would also have to say systems are boundaries in organizations. And these boundaries helps… So, boundaries or systems, these boundaries, these systems help you stay consistent.

So, we knew what our weeks and months were going to look like with the podcast, we knew what it looked like to stay consistent. And we designed the organization, with the podcast organization, sorry, org terms come up, around how we could stay consistent. That's kind of where the sweet spot is around enjoyment of this creative process is getting really clear on where those systems, where those processes, boundaries are in place so that you can continue to enjoy it, you can continue to not resent it when it comes up on your calendar, right?

And I think we both had phases, you know, me most recently where I was strapped for time, and I was not feeling energized about the podcast, right? And that's where we had to sit down and talk about new systems and new boundaries. You know, it's a living organization.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. And I actually love that quote that systems are boundaries. I think that's really, really important. Do you know Katie Lemieux from the Private Practice Startup?

KATHRYN ESQUER: I know of her, yes.

PATRICK CASALE: Okay, she's a good friend. And she loves system. She could talk about it all day until my eyes glaze over. But all I'm saying is like, she's right. And when she talks about it, there's this passion there. And I think it's just such an important piece of anything business-related and entrepreneurial related to really get this stuff down. And to really figure out what you just said, there are going to be stages and seasons of life and then you just reevaluate. But at least you have the foundation in place to go back to and anchor into so that you can reevaluate, you can tweak you can edit, and then you can in Improve your processes along the way.

ALLIE JOY: And I will say I love having a partnership, I think too. like, it's so nice to be able to have like the energy from somebody else of like Kathryn said, we've gone through different phases in life, we've had things going on in our personal lives, our energy, motivation, it fluctuates, that's life. And I think, I feel like at least, hopefully, Kathryn, I hope you feel this way. Like, I feel like we can do a great job of like lifting each other up when we need it, meeting each other like where we're at when we need it.

And I think too, like for me, I have the brain that's like very excited, I want to do all the things. Like, I have a little bit of a chaotic energy to me. But I think we balance each other out great, because whereas I'm like we have to do this every single day, and Kathryn's like, "But do we?" And I feel like we do a good job, at least I think of like pulling each other back as well of like, recognizing when you're just like on this high of excitement and creative energy, versus like what you actually need to do. And I love that Kathryn can pull me back when I need it. Like, because I definitely am the type of person that needs that.

KATHRYN ESQUER: You pull me back too. We have moments. We both have our inspired moments, we both have our inspired moments. And yeah, the partnership, also just to reflect, I don't think one of us could have created this on her own. Like, it would have been a totally different podcast without the other one. And that's the beauty, that's the magic of it, I think. And also, like our businesses outside of the podcast would look differently had we not done this podcast, which is kind of cool to think about too.

ALLIE JOY: Yeah, I completely agree.

PATRICK CASALE: Sounds like it's been a really cool journey these last couple of years. And I'm really excited to see what comes next for you all that you kind of alluded to already. So, any last-minute advice for anyone listening or anything you want to leave people with?

KATHRYN ESQUER: Do it scared?

ALLIE JOY: I like that, do it scared but set yourself up to do it well.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:31:48]-

ALLIE JOY: …that was great, thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: Love it. Yeah, my motto has become doubt yourself, do it anyway, which is, obviously, in alignment with do it scared. I agree and endorse that wholeheartedly. So, I really, really love that. And you two obviously balance each other out really well. So, congrats on all the successes and Allie, I know you're going to take the lead on sharing where people can find more of what you all have to offer.

ALLIE JOY: Yeah, we thought to make it easy. You can find a lot of information about us and all the things we do on our podcast website. So, everyone can head over to abadtherapist.com, can listen to the podcast, the other things, but also see our personal About Us, all that. So, I feel like that's a nice concise place people can… instead of a tons of social handles.

PATRICK CASALE: And we will include all social handles in the show notes too and the website link as well so that everyone has easy access to all of that information. Just want to thank you both for making the time, and coming on today, and sharing some of your story.

KATHRYN ESQUER: Patrick, it's great.

ALLIE JOY: Thank you for having us.

PATRICK CASALE: To everyone listening to the All Thing Private Practice Podcast, new episodes are out on every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week.