Episode 137: Breaking the Status Quo: Success, Self-Doubt, and Therapy Intensives [featuring Amanda Buduris]

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice podcast. I'm here today with Dr. Amanda Buduris and a licensed… I knew I was going to fuck this up. A licensed psychologist, trauma therapist, business and mindset coach for trauma therapists. And her work centers around helping those with a history of trauma to deconstruct the thought viruses that tell them they aren't enough or aren't allowed to take up space.

This is going to be a good conversation because as you say in your bio, you're a first-generation woman of color and you're often the youngest person in the professional spaces, so that has to be something that you're constantly aware of when you're in the room.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And I imagine there's been a lot of work to have to kind of navigate that and work through that. But before we jump into our conversation, please tell the audience if I missed anything in your bio that feels important or anything that you want them to know about you.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Nothing in particular. Those are definitely the highlights. I'm out in Oregon, but I'm originally from Chicago. So, I have different, like, Oregon's very like a laid back vibe and sometimes type… like in Chicago kind of trained me to be very type A. So, it feels like I'm trying to navigate like, how do I be like a successful business owner with also, like, navigating the landscape of who are the other professionals around me? So, that's just like a fun business thing.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, being from New York and then moving to the south, it's kind of a bunch of that too where you're like, why is everything so slow? Why don't we [INDISCERNIBLE 00:02:28] faster? And [CROSSTALK 00:02:30]. So, it's kind of like, okay, I kind of appreciate this. And now I to go back to New York. I'm like, "Oh, I couldn't live here ever again."

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, totally.

PATRICK CASALE: So, tell us a little bit about this. So, like, in your bio, you know, you kind of mentioned that. And you own a successful practice, and coaching business, and you're helping therapists, you know, do all sorts of things in the therapeutic spaces. Tell us about some of the challenges that come along with some of the identity that you have.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, I mean, I think so far my experience throughout grad school, anywhere that I worked before private practice, and even some of the work now is that like, I've worked in a lot of, like, white dominant spaces.

And so, for me, like, I know, I have some amount of passing privilege. A lot of people read me a white anyway, about like, never feeling truly seen and not like accepted, but sometimes accepted. Like, it does feel very different to navigate a space where it's like, "I don't know how people are thinking about me, some people don't even know that, like, I'm a doctor, because they're like, 'She looks way too young.'"

I work with a lot of people in my coaching business who are two decades older than me. So, I've got for a lot of reasons all this, like, impostor syndrome that can come up of like, "Well, what the hell do I have to offer these people? And do they even think that I can be helpful to them?" So, yeah. It can come with some anxiety and a lot of doubts sometimes.

PATRICK CASALE: Oh, yeah. I'm sure that that's pretty constant. And having to, like, reinforce, and affirm, right? Like, you've worked really hard to get to where you're at. So, I think that's important to acknowledge. And I'm sure that's like a constant process too in certain instances.

And I think when we talk about impostor syndrome on this podcast, we try to take different perspectives because it impacts people for different reasons. And I think so often for women and women of color, especially, it's a lot of the time, like you said, because you're in white-dominated spaces. And then it's like, "Well, I don't really belong here. I don't fit in." Or people are looking at me like how the hell did I get here?

So, for those who are listening who will share similar experiences, can you tell us a little bit about the ways that you've kind of navigated some of this stuff as you've gone through both your personal and professional journey?

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of it has been, the thing that I wrote in my bio came from like my own therapy session where I was talking with my therapist of like, you know, why do I have some of these beliefs that I have about myself? Like, why do I struggle with not believing in myself? Not thinking I'm enough?

And she referred to it as these thought viruses of like something gets implanted in your brain of like, for some reason you're not enough. And that just can take over everything.

And so for me, it touches on a lot of like, as the younger person and in a lot of spaces, as a woman of color, like knowing that sometimes my default is going to be to have that thought of like, I'm not enough, or people aren't going to take me seriously or see what I have to offer, and just like, recognize and name that, but not let that be where it stops to see, like, I do have things to offer. I'm a young fucking doctor. I can do and offer really great things for people. So, to be able to not just have it be, "I worry I'm not enough." But to actively try and like push through it and recognize I do have a lot of strengths and skills to offer people.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's a really powerful way to kind of combat that "thought virus" because so often for people it kind of gets to that point, right? Where it's like, here's the message that I'm receiving or interpreting and it kind of stops there. And a lot of time it like prevents them from moving forward, it paralyzes them, it keeps people small because then it's like it's not really possible for me to expand or take up space. So, having that constant reminder to reinforce like, hey, no, this is not rational, right? Like, this was implanted but there are so many ways that I can combat this. So, that's a really important way to do it.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, because like-

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:06:55]-

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah. I noticed a lot of the ways that like, yeah, like when I feel small, for some reason that I know, like, it's not usually actually about like me. It's usually about like, other people's shit. And so it's like, okay, if I'm feeling small, and I'm feeling mad about something, like, there's something I want to do here, and I want to do something different.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. And it sounds like doing a lot of work, though, to get to a place where you can recognize that, name it, and move through it.

So, for those who are listening who are like, "Damn, I find myself stuck in this space pretty often." Strategies, techniques, any sort of affirmation words of wisdom that they could take away? Because I think implementation is so important with all of this stuff.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, yeah. I mean, number one, like I said, my own therapy. So, if you're not in your own therapy, especially, as a therapist, definitely get into it.

I think two, just surrounding myself or being exposed to more places where people are talking about it vulnerably and honestly because otherwise, before I went into private practice, like, everyone around me were just kind of feeling like or seeming like, you know, we've got it all together, we know what we're doing. Like, you should just be confident enough, you just need to know what you're doing. But no one would actually talk about what to do when actually you have no idea what the hell you're doing.

And so that just made me feel even worse and less than. And so the more I was able to be exposed to podcasts like yours and other people who just talk very openly about, of course, you question your ability, of course, you doubt yourself, of course, you don't know how to do something you don't know how to do, that's super normal. That was so helpful. And being like, there are a lot of other people out there in that space like me. I'm not actually alone in this.

So, finding those supportive spaces, and not those really shaming places which I know we've all seen those groups on social media where people can be very judgmental. So, if you're in those spaces, set the boundaries of those spaces.

PATRICK CASALE: Totally. Yep, absolutely. Having those places where we can normalize things, like, because so often, we do not talk about the fear, the failure, the shame, the struggle because it's like, internalized. And then we kind of say to ourselves, "I'm the only one experiencing this, there must be something wrong with me."

And in reality, it's like no. Like, when we're vulnerable and we're able to open up about this stuff, the amount of people that you reach and access because they're like, "Oh, I'm having the exact same or a very similar experience." Is so normalizing within the human experience and conditions.

So, when we are therapists and mental health professionals, I think we already have, like, this very high level of self-criticism. And we hold ourselves to very high standards, mostly, unrealistically. And then we take it a step further, we move into the entrepreneurial spaces or small business owner spaces, but 99% of us haven't had any small business training. So, it very quickly becomes like, this self-fulfilling, like, prophecy of, "I'm not good enough. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm going to fail. I'm constantly making mistakes. I don't know how to ask for help. Or if I do, I feel like too embarrassed."

And that can really be so debilitating because I think if we keep it all internal it really starts to create this, like, self-destructive process.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, absolutely. And especially, like, me having the experience of going through my six years of schooling, my year of postdoc residency, everything involved in getting my psychology license, like, I know that if given the steps to saying like, you do this class, and then you set this thing up. Like, I know that I'm capable of doing it. But something about moving into private practice despite a decade of schooling, I was like, "I could figure this all on my own, it'll be fine. And I'm smart, I'm capable of doing that."

And then I was like, "What am I doing?" Like, I know how to follow something when it's laid out. So, I need to go to people to know how to lay it out for me who have been there and already gone through the struggles, and want me to benefit from that in a sense of like, don't make this mistake, do this instead. So, DIYing it is like not the way to go when you have no idea what you're doing.

PATRICK CASALE: I feel like DIYing it and mental health professionals who start small businesses go hand in hand for so many reasons of like, I just don't have the resources to outsource or I just don't see the value in doing it. Or that mentality of like, a lot of us with control issues are like, "I'm just going to do it all myself. Like, I just have to figure out how to wear all the hats."

And it gets really overwhelming really quickly. It really doesn't set yourself up for success in terms of like, I could be doing more of the things I loved if I passed off the things that I hate, or I don't know how to do, or I don't have time to do.

And I think there's this weird disconnect within our profession where it's so hard to just admit, like, I'm going to have to outsource, I'm going to have to ask someone for support. Despite the fact that we are teaching our clients all the time to do these things, we do not often practice what we preach.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, because again, we are highly educated people. And we can figure things out. And we can do a lot. But it's that same advice that we are giving to our clients over and over. Like, just because you can doesn't mean you should. And it's not sustainable, definitely not in small business ownership.

PATRICK CASALE: No. And again, it's like you could be the best therapist in the world, but if you really struggle with collecting payment, if you really struggle with like, how to get client calls coming in the door, and it just can lead to this situation where you are so excited to start your practice then all of a sudden, six months later, you're packing up shop, and you're like, "Well, I guess I'm going back to community mental health because I can't make it as a business owner."

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:13:22]-

AMANDA BUDURIS: …so much of that is like the shame and the fear that we see from a lot of other therapists who, like, weren't able to outsource and had to close their businesses or who said like, the only way you are going to succeed is if you do these things that people don't want to do. Like, they may not want to work evenings, or weekends, or take insurance, wherever that might be. But to see some people so strongly say this is the one way you're going to make it. And it's like, what would? So, [PH 00:13:50] because that make people worry about, I don't know if that's how I want to make it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all approach. I think so often, in the Facebook groups, or just in general, you have this advice that's really just not good advice where it's like, this is the only way to be successful. Or this is the only blueprint. If you don't follow it, then there's going to be judgment, there's going to be, like, this message of you're doing it incorrectly. Or, you know, you're doing it in a way that doesn't align with my values.

And I think for us like it doesn't matter. I always say, whatever type of business you want to create, like, more power to you. Like, there's room for everybody. And there's room for all different ideologies and mentalities in terms of how am I going to structure this? So, that could be a whole different conversation.

So, for you, tell us about what's worked? Like, the stuff that you've gotten to a place where you're like, this feels like I got this down. Like, I feel really confident or I feel really good about this.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, and I think a lot of it comes from at some point, I think, I was doing everything in my private life myself for about like, four, six months. And then I was like, "I need to ask for help." And so I started, actually, investing in my practice as opposed to just trying to DIY everything, trying to just, like, cut expenses as much as possible to maximize profit as much as possible.

So, I was like, I'm going to actually learn from someone like, how the hell do I write copy? How do I market outside of Psychology Today because that's not getting anywhere. The more and more that I actually went to experts and said, "Teach me what you're doing that's working." The more that that actually helped my business work. And the more that that helped me be able to hire people, to outsource the tasks that I hate doing. And the more that helped me to get more time back and to expand into some of the coaching work where now I'm supporting other therapists.

But simply, again, just that idea of like, asking for help, and knowing that that's okay. Like, you're not supposed to know how to do this all unless you've got a second marketing degree, or something like that, or graphic design, or whatever. But yeah, just by asking for support, and learning too that it is okay for me to do things my way because, yeah, we could get on a whole other topic about this.

I just got in a fight with someone on Facebook the other day of like, I'm in Oregon. So, like, I need to charge high fees to be sustainable in Oregon. And a lot of people will see that at face value, for those of us who do private pay as like, well, you just don't value social justice, and you're just oppressing the poor, and all these things that, again, some people are going to look at that and feel like, "I guess I can't do that. Like, that's going to make me a bad person to that other therapist."

As opposed to just like, "Well, this is actually what works for me. It actually helps me find other ways to do work excessively without like, financial stress and anxiety." So, the more that I'm just like, "Let me do what works for me." And embracing that, that's been just, like, game-changing in terms of my confidence, not only as a therapist, but as a business owner.

And so I get to be more creative with, I do a lot of therapy intensives where I see people for three to nine hours at a time, where we just do a shit ton of therapy, where clients do get to move through their goals in more of an accelerated way. And that's been also huge for shifting things around in my practice.

So, I just find that I'm like, I'm going to do whatever makes me happy, whatever I want, and some therapists are going to judge and some are going to be like, "Show me the way." And that's great either way. But asking for help doing what I want, those have been the biggest things for, yeah, just where I'm at today.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that. I think that's such a great perspective of like, asking for help is huge because I think so often we don't see the immediate value in spending money on things that's going to actually perpetuate our growth in the long term. Like, you may pay for coaching, you may pay for marketing, SEO, web design, graphic design, social media management, etc., and in the immediacy, as you're starting off, you may not see the results right away. And it can feel like a money pit if you don't know where that money should be going.

But if you really invest it into your business in the right ways, it really pays itself back 10 times over, and we're playing the long game, we're not paying for like, "Okay, I'm going to start running Google ads. And also I'm going to get 100 calls in one day." That's not how it works. But I think so often, that's the expectation. So, when it doesn't work it's like, "See, this is why you don't do these things."

AMANDA BUDURIS: Right.

PATRICK CASALE: And then more importantly, what you said about doing what you want to be doing. I think that is so important to highlight when we're talking about small business ownership because it's so easy to get caught up in the mentality of what should I be doing? What is everyone else doing?

And social media plays that role, right? Like, we're in comparison culture. We often set our rates based on what everyone else is doing. We often set up our structures because of what everyone else is doing. And in reality, it's like, but what if this doesn't work for me and my needs?

So, if we are only setting our fees based on what five other therapists in my community say I should set my fees at, where did their advice come from? Where did their thought processes come from? They probably did the same exact thing where they were like, I'm going to go on Psych Today and see what everyone's charging. Or I'm going to look at all the websites in my area and see what everyone's charging.

Okay, this is a reasonable fee or a rate. We don't really often take into consideration like, what kind of lifestyle am I trying to live? What kind of needs do I have that need to be met? Because that's really how fee setting should work. And then if we get caught up in the whole, like, if you don't take insurance, you are just really buying into capitalism. It's like, the people who run insurance companies are making billions of dollars to provide health insurance that doesn't cover anything, that doesn't do a fucking thing because you have a $10,000 deductible before you can start paying your copay.

So, it's a flawed system, we know that. So, I think it's really important. And you made a statement that's really a powerful one, where it's like, you can either get caught up in the shame-based aspect of it of like, people telling you what you're doing wrong, or the people who are like, "Show me the way."

And if you're focusing more on the people who are asking to show me the way, the career feels a lot more satisfying, it feels more fulfilling, it feels more energizing, it feels more like passion-filled opposed to like drudging and dredging like, "Oh, my God, this feels like I'm constantly battling." That's not a fun way to go through this profession or this career or through life.

AMANDA BUDURIS: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:21:43].

PATRICK CASALE: And I think if you can get to a place of what do I want out of this? What do I want this to look like? You can start to really create the business structure that works for you.

And I think impostor syndrome shows up and plays a major role in this when it's like, "Hey, you shouldn't be structuring this way. You're not allowed to do A, B, and C. That feels like really unethical." We' love to throw that word around in this profession.

So, I think it's about just really challenging those narratives which can be hard to do. And I think you have to be really anchored in and really grounded in what is important to you. And if you align your values with your business, then it really goes hand in hand.

And for me, I may not be, like, giving sessions and things away for free constantly, but it allows me to put my money into causes that I care about, to donate money and time. And I think for me, that makes more sense than, like, giving away session after session after session, when in reality, it's like I can have a much bigger impact if I can see it in a different light and a different lens.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, I think, again, that's the beauty that comes from, like, again, what works for you. And also having that be you don't have to have it all figured out at once. Like, what works for you now might change in six months or a year. So, so much of us get stuck in that like, "But I have to make the best decision now and that's going to determine the rest of my career."

It's like, no, do what works for you now and then reevaluate. What are the things that still make you mad? Okay, maybe make some changes around them. What are the things that fill you up? How do you get more of that?

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I think this is an evolving career, right, process. Like, if you're a small business owner, where you are today is not going to be where you are in five years. Like, you're going to make mistakes, you're going to learn from them, you're going to incorporate changes, you're going to pivot, you're going to shift, you're going to revise policies and procedures, you're going to change the hours that you work, you're going to up your fees, you're going to decide to take different trainings, and get involved in different interests.

Like, where I am right now compared to where I was in 2016 when I started my practice is night and day. And all of my coaching and advice is off of mistakes that I made or would not make again, where it was like I saw everybody in anybody. I saw everybody who called me despite what they could pay me. And I overworked myself and recreated my agency job environment and all the things that I tell people not to do.

My website sucked, my Psychology Today sucked, like, but it is a matter of, like, imperfect action and moving through that instead of saying, "I'm just not going to get started because I don't know how."

AMANDA BUDURIS: Absolutely, picking whatever EHR, picking whatever your color palette is, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:24:33] just about picking something and then like change later.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think once you choose something and you, like, make a decision, then you can revise, and edit, and improve. But you can't do that if you're stuck in like perfectionism, impostor syndrome and you're like, I can't get started because I have to demo every single EHR out there to figure out what is the best one. No, you can pick one and you can fucking change it. Like, you can change your website, you can change your branding. Like, you can reinvent yourself so many times.

And I think that's the beauty in this is like, as a small business owner, the finish line is far away, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon, and you get to have pit stops along the way, you get to kind of, like, just reinvent who you are, what your beliefs are, and the things that you're passionate about. And then there's no stagnation in that.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, exactly. And again, that's where I feel like so much of that, like, creativity, like, the more that I'm able to actually be creative, like even that in and of itself helps like my own, like, self-doubt, of like, okay, like, maybe I don't see myself doing this thing in the way that person does it. But actually, I see this thing, like, that I could fully create that I've never seen over here. And like that helps. And it's super confident because I'm not comparing myself against what others have done comparing it against what I haven't seen anyone do, and in the way that I want to see it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that. And that is the way to, like, create that, not only that spark of creativity, but that passion, and it allows you to do better work. And because you're like, really much more motivated by it, you're much more enthusiastic, you're much more willing to try, I think that entrepreneurialship is about taking risks at times.

And it doesn't mean you're always diving in headfirst. But it does mean stepping out of your comfort zone, it does mean trying to do things differently. And again, adapting them to what works for you. I think that is the important takeaway, again, is like figuring out what you want this career to look like for you, not for what everyone else says you should do, or it should look like.

So, you had mentioned you didn't want to talk about this. But just for those listening, like you do therapy intensives. And I know a lot of people are interested in that as a different source of income because people don't want to just do 60-minute session after 60-minute session after 60-minute session. Can you speak to that, like, in terms of what can that offer you as a business owner and what can that offer the client?

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point because it's not just therapists who can be kind of bored with the 60-minute session, it's also clients. There are clients who are like, it's going to take me too long to dive in to get to the stuff I really need to talk about. And so they are already looking for a space where they can have more space, even if that's the difference between a 60-minute session or a 90-minute session.

And so therapy intensives are great. In a lot of ways in my therapy practice my specialties are around trauma and couples work. And those are perfect examples. But I think, you know, there's probably any niche that could support therapy intensives where, again, you just get the time to really focus in on, like, where are you at? Where have you been stuck? And where do you want to go?

And sometimes that's not even about a thing. Like, sometimes it is, "I got in a car accident or need to get over this ASAP." But sometimes, again, it's just personal individual preference of people who are like, "This medical model of therapy does not work for me. This is not about just like, super-fast symptom reduction, I need to actually really be able to trust my therapist, and it's going to be harder to do that if I'm only seeing you for like 15 minutes every other week."

But everyone benefits from can we get some more time? Can we get some more space? And I've seen great things happen for clients making, like, significant shifts in their life. People talk about it like it's like massive, mind-blowing life changes in three hours. Like, so much can change when you just open up beyond what the insurance model of therapy has said this is what it's supposed to look like.

And on the therapist's end, it's so cool to see that. That's where, again, I'm becoming more confident of like, it's not that actually I didn't know what I was doing. I was again trying to adhere to a model that didn't work for me. The more that I'm able to just extend those sessions and the more people are capable of, if that makes me feel like a better therapist, it means that my schedule doesn't have to be how many hour-long sessions can I fit into this chunk of his day this week, but actually I get to be really flexible with, well, this week, I do have a six-hour intensive and only like for weekly clients or whatever it depends on looking like but my schedule has gotten a lot more flexible.

I say there's a lot of these different, what are people saying? Like, additional or alternative income streams, whatever. Like, therapy intensives are one of the easiest way to do that because you already know what you're doing. It's just you're changing it a little bit. You're just expanding how you're doing therapy. So, it does have really great income potential without you needing to, how the hell did I pick where I'm going to host this course? And I have to decide what I'm recording it on it, and what's email marketing? So, it's a really accessible way for therapists to just try something that's a little bit different.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you can obviously increase your bottom line, you can increase the money you're bringing in, you can increase the healing that happens, and then much quicker, and accelerated way.

And if you think about it, right, again, circling back to this mentality of like, we have to take insurance to be accessible. If you do a three-hour intensive, and you have these breakthroughs, and it costs X amount of money, and they don't have to come every week, and they don't have to pay out of pocket or pay their deductible or their copay, you've just actually created a substantial amount of healing that would have maybe taken three months, four months, five months, potentially, never getting to the actual problem or the root of the cause because, again, 50-minute increments of time, it's really hard and people are busy. And it's not always easy to just dive in.

Sometimes you stay above the surface, right? For like the first 30, 40 minutes of a session. How often do we have a client who just, like, drops that bomb at the end and you're like, "Okay, see you next week." And I'm like, "Fuck I don't know what to do with that."

I really like the intensive model. I think it's a great option for those of you who are doing trauma therapy. It's a great option where you're doing these deeper dives. And I think a lot of clients do want to go deeper, they want to get results, they want to really work through some of the stuff that talk therapy traditionally is just not helping with. So, really a cool alternative stream of revenue.

And like you said, you don't have to figure all the moving pieces out that you don't know how to do like, oh, you want to start a podcast, there's moving pieces, you want to start a coaching program, there's moving pieces, you want to do therapy intensives, you already know what to do. So, it's just about creating the rates and then creating the informed consent around it. So, I think that's a really great point.

For those that are listening, any last-minute advice? Any last-minute tips or strategies that you want to leave people with? And also please share where people can find more of you so that they can work with you?

AMANDA BUDURIS: Yeah, yeah. And I think really just big takeaways around, you know, you do ultimately know what you're doing and what you have to offer as a therapist. Like, there is no question about that. I think when it comes to running the business side of what you're doing in a practice, ask for help where you are more stuck, where you don't know what you're doing. Like, save yourself literal time, and money, and headaches with just asking people who have been there.

And again, that piece of just because a business coach you hire might say like, "This really worked for me." That doesn't mean that's what you have to do. So, it's about like learning some of the wisdoms with also that grain of salt of how does that fit in with my identities and how I want my practice look, and what I value?

And maybe making a little bit more of like an informed choice as opposed to just like shooting in the dark, throwing spaghetti at the wall, and just hoping something's going to work, and then hating things down the road, though. Reach out for help and get some perspective. But also, keep in mind, like, what is the thing actually I want to do at the end of the day.

I'm on all, well, not all because that would be overwhelming. But I'm on Facebook and Instagram at Amanda KB Coaching, though, that's where all my information is. I have a free Facebook group where I am holding trainings, teaching people how to do the therapy intensives, where, like, quite honestly, a lot of it just is the mindset work of you already know what you're doing, you just maybe market it on this page a little bit differently. Or here's how you want to think about your rate a little bit differently. So, people are welcome to join that group if they want to get some more information.

And I also have a coaching program where I walk people through all the things related to intensives, and copywriting, and marketing. Like, the program I wish I had when I was shifting out of my agency work into private practice is the thing that I built that I've become super, super passionate about because the therapists in it are really enjoying just having like a comprehensive space where you get to learn all the things in one place from one person as opposed to probably the experience a lot of us have had of like, you do that marketing course with that person, that copywriting course with that person. Like, just combine it all. Ease of access is like one of my biggest values. And so, yeah, that's a little bit about me.

PATRICK CASALE: Cool, that's awesome. And all of that information will be in the show notes so you can easily access what Amanda has to offer. Really cool conversation and really excited to meet you in person at some of these retreats and destinations.

So, I hope that everyone had some good takeaways today, and thanks for coming on, Amanda.

AMANDA BUDURIS: Thank you, Patrick.

PATRICK CASALE: To everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week.