Episode 193: From FBI to Burnout Specialist: Preventing Burnout in High-Pressure Professions [featuring Rachel Murdock]

Show Notes

In this episode, I talk with Rachel Murdock, a burnout prevention specialist, group practice owner, and former FBI employee who bravely walked away from a "golden handcuffs" career to reclaim her well-being and design a life on her own terms. Her story is an empowering reminder that sometimes betting on yourself is the best investment you can make.

Here are 3 key takeaways:

1. Burnout isn’t just about workload—culture matters. Toxic organizational structures, lack of boundaries, and constant demand can erode even the most passionate professionals. Sometimes, the hardest part isn’t the job itself, but the noise of the system you're in.
2. Permission to pause can change everything. Rachel emphasizes that we’re at our best when we step back, take breaks, and intentionally reset. Small, regular pauses (even just 15 minutes!) help rejuvenate your nervous system and protect your long-term health.
3. Your impact is meaningful, but your well-being matters more. Organizations will survive when you move on. Choosing yourself isn’t selfish—it’s necessary. There’s power in letting go of the idea that you have to sacrifice your own needs for the mission.

If you’re feeling stuck, burnt out, or scared to make a change, Rachel’s journey proves you can honor your passion, set boundaries, and thrive beyond traditional structures.

More about Rachel:

Rachel Murdock, MS, LPC, LCPC, is the owner/clinician providing mental health counseling in private practice with Beyond the Storm Behavioral Health, LLC. She is a licensed counselor in Missouri, Kansas, and Iowa, and supervises clinicians obtaining licensure in Missouri and Kansas. Her practice specializes in mental health counseling for first responders and individuals experiencing anxiety, mood disorders, or post-traumatic stress, and survivors of abuse.

Rachel does wellness checks for various first responder agencies to promote psychological resilience, psychoeducation about trauma and coping skills, and provide resources and referrals as part of a statutory mandate in Missouri (590.192), requiring all sworn peace officers and dispatch personnel to meet with a program service provider every three to five years. 

Prior to January 2023, Rachel was a Supervisory Child/Adolescent Forensic Interviewer (SCAFI) with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Victim Services Division, Child Victim Services Unit, and held this position for seven months prior to her resignation, which led to her reopening her private practice. From November 4, 2012, to July 3, 2022, she was a Child/Adolescent Forensic Interviewer (CAFI) in the same unit. Prior to joining the FBI, Rachel was a forensic interviewer at The Child Advocacy Center, Inc., in Springfield, Missouri.  

During her career as a forensic interviewer, Rachel conducted almost 3,000 forensic interviews of alleged victims of/or witnesses to an incident. Rachel has studied forensic interviewing, children’s memory and suggestibility, process of disclosure, and trauma responses of victims for over 20 years.

Rachel has published on topics such as definitions of child abuse and neglect, the disclosure process in child abuse victims/witnesses, forensic child psychology, dynamics of compliant victimization, internet exploitation, suggestibility, and trauma. Her manuscripts all appear in peer-reviewed journals or book chapters, and Rachel has presented locally, nationally, and internationally about these topics since 2006.

Rachel has testified in state and federal hearings and trials during her career as a fact and/or expert witness.

Rachel is a faculty member with Avila University’s Graduate Counseling Psychology program and an adjunct faculty member Missouri State University’s Department of Psychology, where she created a course, Psychology of Child Abuse and Exploitation, and co-authored a textbook regarding issues of compliant victimization, dynamics of child abuse, process of disclosure, and other topics related to child abuse. Rachel has taught this course for almost twenty years. Additionally, she taught other courses related to child and adolescent development during her tenure as a faculty member with the department.

Social Media:

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rachelnmurdock
• Facebook: facebook.com/share/1AyqzVimcT
• Instagram: instagram.com/beyondthestormkc

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to All Things Private Practice podcast, joined today by friend and colleague, Rachel Murdock, who is a therapist and clinician, group practice owner with Beyond the Storm Behavioral Health. And she is a burnout prevention specialist, who really is working with organizations to help with culture and organizational burnout, and just all of the things that go into that, because she has a very unique background, where she used to work for the FBI. So, that is super cool. And you have left an entity, you know, that, obviously, has a lot of acclaim for good or for worse. And you are not sad to be gone.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Is what you just said before we started recording.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Yeah, I miss the work. You know, the organizational stressors are what I don't miss. Like, worrying about government shutdowns, and reduce enforce, and some of those other things. 

And all of those things are things that can contribute to burnout, which is sad to say, because I worked crimes against children. And the hardest part wasn't the crimes against children, it was all of the background noise that added an extra layer of stress and just the political climate. Those things can definitely, you know, come and go, and, yeah, it becomes a really tricky thing.

But yes, I feel very relieved to be my own boss and a business owner. Even on the hard days, it's better than working for, you know, an organization for me at this point in life.

PATRICK CASALE: Yes, I've said that many times on here, that as a business owner, even on hard days, I would take it any day over working for somebody else. I have no regrets. Do you have any?

RACHEL MURDOCK: I'm with you there. I don't, no. I mean, I'm two years out right now, and it's hard because I'm still figuring everything out, and navigating growth, and growing pains. But I don't regret it. I did it for me. And you know, I'm recovering from pretty bad burnout myself. And I just think I would be in a totally different place if I was still doing what I was doing a few years ago, because it was just too much.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, so your story is a unique one. I think a lot of people listening are not coming from a situation where they're leaving an entity like the FBI. They're probably leaving community mental health, or potentially a group practice, or grad school, or wherever. So, I want you to speak to that a little bit, because I think when we think about working for a government entity, like something that has that, I don't even want to get into what I think about it, anyway, it doesn't matter. The reality is, when you talk about the government entity or something that feels really secure, it feels like a big leap to leave. So, I want to know, like, what was going on in that time where you were, like, "I've got to bet on myself, and I've got to take this leap."

RACHEL MURDOCK: Yeah, no, I call it the golden handcuffs, because when I left the FBI, I was making six figures. I had great health insurance. I had security. I had it made. And I was doing really important work. Like, working crimes against children is still very near and dear to my heart. And it was a really big decision to walk away. 

But I encourage people and I share in my own journey, things don't have to be terrible for you to bet on yourself. Like, I was still doing really good, important work, but the pace, the amount of travel, the things that I was exposing myself to, it wasn't sustainable.

And so, for me, I wanted to use the skills that I developed at the FBI and focus on that in the mental health space, by being able to focus on first responder mental health, which is a population that historically has pushed back a bit on mental health, and then, also burnout, because I got very burned out dangerously so where I started having a lot of physical health and mental health symptoms. And so, for me, I was choosing myself over the agency, and for my family. And so, it was a no-brainer, but it was still really hard to actually execute. And it took me many years to get to a point where I said, “Who leaves the FBI? Like, people work hard to get into it. Who decides to leave on their own terms?”

But once I got over that hump, I said, "This is okay for me to go a different direction. It doesn't have to be, you know, the journey that I’ll do for the next 20 years, just because I thought that life was going to look this way."

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. 100% that's a really great reminder. Because I think those of you who are listening, who can't relate to leaving the FBI, you can certainly probably relate to being in a stage of burnout, where we hear this so often with people in community mental health, where they're like, "I'm so burnt out. I've been getting sick. I'm developing all these autoimmune disorders. But I feel like I have to be there. I feel like I need to work 60 to 80 hours a week. And I can't let my team down. And I can't let my clients down." And all of the shit that comes with it.

And I was there. I mean, I was in middle management in community mental health. I could never do enough for our staff, because we never had enough resource. But I could never, like, what's the word I'm looking for? I could never appease the higher-ups who had nothing to do with like the people who were actually doing the work or were asking more with less.

And I felt an impossible position to be in. I'm working 80 hours a week being on call, like being up all the time because I managed a 24-hour facility, so like, if we had someone call out for the 2:00 AM shift, it was my responsibility to figure out, like, how to fill it. And I was so, so burnt out. And I’d guilt trip myself forever about leaving, and I felt like they need me, and my staff needs me, and my clients need me. And then, I wrote a fucking 90-day notice, and they were they replaced me in two days. They don't need me at all. 

And it's amazing, the mental gymnastics we can go through because of security, and safety, and stability. And like, I almost described some of those entities in community mental health, especially, as like, almost abusive relationships, where you feel guilty for leaving, but they don't need you at all. And they will take advantage of you. And you will get burned out. And they don't give a shit.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Yeah, and we hear that a lot, where people kind of liken it to a domestic violence relationship, where you are vying for the approval of your agency or the person yet there's this cycle of, you know, it never being enough, or never good enough, or all of the things.

And as you mentioned, you know, the FBI takes a little longer to replace someone because of the background checks. However, that's the joke that I say, you know, when I'm training now, I'm like, somehow the FBI was able to move on without me, even though I thought that I was so damn important to them. 

And I'm not negating the impact that we have, but I also think that the agency will continue to function once you're no longer there. And so, you don't have to hold yourself back for feeling responsible for something that isn't yours to manage. Like, the FBI found a replacement, and she's a good replacement, and they figured it out.

And so, it's okay to choose yourself and not take on the responsibility of keeping an agency functional when it's not yours. I was not the FBI director. It was not my role to figure out what to happen from there.

PATRICK CASALE: Totally, yeah, and that's a great point. And I think that's like this existential crossroads for a lot of us, like, is it okay to put myself first? What happens if I start doing that? Because I've been so used to, especially, as therapists, right? Like, so often people pleasers or like, I'm going to do everything for everyone. I'm going to put everyone else before myself. And so much struggle to say, like, my needs matter and what I want to pursue matters.

And I think that is a huge step when you can, like, confidently and definitively say, "I want to pursue this thing for me, and I know that there is risk involved, and that it's scary.” But is the juice worth the squeeze in the long run?

RACHEL MURDOCK: Right, right. Well, that's how I actually found you in the first place. Is during this crisis, went into your journey when I was like, "What am I going to do?" And you know, you were kind of just starting out your coaching and moving into that. And I remember you saying, which is, now, you know the tagline, like, doubt yourself and do it anyway. Because my fear was, A, I'm going to leave the agency, but B, what if I do it, and I'm not busy, or I don't succeed, or it falls flat? 

And I remember thinking like, "Why do I assume that it's going to turn out like this?" And now, you know, my friends kind of tease me because it's turned out the complete opposite way from what I feared. Because they're like, "You're the hustler. You would never sit on the couch and sit back and not make it happen." But I remember distinctly being like, "But what if I walk away from this great job, and I can't get back there if I want to as easily as you'd hope."

But then, on the flip side, man, I am richly blessed. And I've worked my ass off. But to look at, you know, it was me in January of 2023, and I have myself and 11 other clinicians in two years, and it's not been without pain points, but you can do it. And you can have a vision, and fear, and do it anyway.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, you know, congratulations on that. First of all, it's definitely worth applause. I think, you know, just knowing you and I got to know you in Belize at my retreat with Gabrielle, but like I would never think you were the person who was going to fail at this just because your personality type would not allow for it. What I understand, because I'm the same way, how our intrusive thoughts can really convince us otherwise.

And what you're doing now, right? Group practice owner, training for organizations, dipping your toe into speaking. These are things that probably when you left that job, I don't know, did you think that this was going to be the outcome?

RACHEL MURDOCK: I had all these big dreams, and I didn't want to bite off more than I could chew, but I did know that one-to-one therapy was not the long-term goal, because I feel like just at my age and how long I've been in the field, I know that that's not something I want to do for the next 20 years. So, I definitely wanted to think about diversifying my income. I think for me, I didn't expect it all to come together as quickly as it did. And others around me, you know, are so kind to say, like, "Well, we knew that you would just take this and run with it." 

But it's just so interesting how you can have all these big ideas, but worry that, you know, it wasn't luck that got you here, just not giving yourself the credit that you earned. But now is the time to leverage that experience and be able to say, "This is why you should hire me to speak."

And it's okay to pitch yourself and sell yourself. And I think that was one of the more uncomfortable things, because I've always had these jobs where it's like the work came to me and now I'm the one defining that. So, that was definitely a shift for me, for sure.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's huge. It's huge. It's like there's such an intense level of vulnerability. But I kind of find it exciting.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Me too.

PATRICK CASALE: You know, I think it's hard for those who are like, "I can't get past the vulnerability piece because…" And that's okay. If you can't get past the vulnerability, and putting yourself out there, and even the RSD that may come with it for those of you who are neurodivergent, like, that's okay. It's absolutely okay if you want to be a one-on-one therapist for the rest of your life.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I've just always been very entrepreneurial, and, like, I have too many interests to just do one thing, and I knew you're in the same boat. So, like, it would be so hard for me to be like, all I do is one-on-one therapy all day every day. Like, that'd feel like, very constricting and constraining. I can't live like that.

So, okay, I know we wanted to talk about burnout, and we've talked about no burnout. So, think about what you're doing now for organizations.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: When we're talking about, like, organizational culture, when we're talking about workplace burnout. I mean, it's pervasive. We live in a capitalist society. We live in grind and hustle culture, and survival mode a lot of the time. So, you come in to organizations and do what?

RACHEL MURDOCK: So, I do think our, you know, this previous conversation is kind of building us to here, because a lot of what we just talked about, the long work hours, the endless demand, the lack of boundaries, all of that as an organization is what can lead to poor retention and burnout.

So, for me, I focus on organizational wellness for organizations that are high pressure. And I think we could argue, "Oh, that's probably every organization." But I lean more into those that are really focused on trauma and some of these heavy topics, where simply saying “reduce your workload or hire more people” that is dismissive and falls on deaf ears. So, I focus a lot with hospitals, first responder agencies, children's advocacy centers, places where there is endless demand, and the expectation that you will be available all of the time, because crisis never stops.

So, we're trying to find what organizations do well that keeps people, you know, working for them for a long time satisfied, morale up, and where there isn't this level of burnout that leads to constant attrition and lack of filling spots. You know, some organizations I talked to that have had six employees leave in a six-month period, that is an exceptionally expensive trend to dealing with. 

And so really, having organizations do a deep dive to say, you know, what are our strengths? What are our weaknesses? Because doing the work can't be enough. Like, saying no people that want to do this, their heart is really committed to the mission, because eventually that runs out. And just being able to really have honest conversations about leadership styles, emotional intelligence, personality, incentives, and really just kind of leaning into can we have an honest look at the way the organization is running? 

If people keep leaving, something is not going well. And so, what investment are we willing to put into it to see if we can recruit the right people, and keep them here, and keep them healthy, because we don't want people doing these jobs that are not in a good place, the safety of, you know, the community depends on that. So, we don't want burned-out people administering first responder responses or working with abused children, or delivering therapy. We want people that are their best.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, 100%. That's a great point and a necessity. And I think it gets overlooked a lot, because in these helping professions, first responders, especially, so much emphasis of, like, taking care of everybody else and just dealing with the culture. And this is just how it is.

And you hear horror stories. I mean, including suicidality, including actual suicide, like completed suicide attempts, right? And then, we're talking massive increases in substance use. We're talking about all of these things that coincide with being a part of these helping professions. Because historically, it's always been about giving everything away and putting everyone else first, and then you just acclimate to the surroundings, and you're like, "This is just how it's always been. So, this is what I'm supposed to do.”

So, can you give us an idea of like, some suggestions, tips, strategies, of like, things that you are helping these places implement? Because I think everyone hears the word, like, burnout prevention, self-care, all the things, but then it's like, what do we actually do?

RACHEL MURDOCK: Right. And I feel like that's one thing that I was really passionate about when I was putting together my package is, I don't want to just define burnout. We all know what it is. I don't want to be just another person that's saying, "Hey, burnout isn't good for you. figure it out." And so-

PATRICK CASALE: Sure. "Take a bubble bath. Take a, like, three-day vacation." Yeah.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Right, right. Because that feels so disconnected. And so, my philosophy is that we are peak performers when we give ourselves permission to pause. We just simply cannot go 100% 100% of the time. And even though the culture of your workplace or your field may encourage that, it's not possible because our nervous systems were not designed to function the way that we try to push it. 

And so, looking at organizations that do things well, some of the things that work well for them are kind of thinking about it like, you know, ocean waves, they come and go. So, we need to modulate effort. So, we need to move from offline time to online time, solo time to group time, you know, high-pressure task to more low-pressure tasks, because what we find in our fields is we try to do eight straight hours of high-pressure work, and by the end, we're completely depleted. So, figuring out, how do we prioritize tasks, how do we modulate effort, and carving in breaks is a necessity. And that's something that people are really not great at especially in high-demand jobs where the work is endless.

And so, figuring out also what the transition periods look like. So, thinking about, you know, what does your commute from work to home look like? And I was really guilty of this at the FBI. I would be on my phone the entire drive home, continuing to deal with work issues, and then walking in my door and immediately shifting into family mode and home mode. And we know our nervous system needs a bit of time for reset. So, prioritizing some of the boundaries that we have, even if our agencies don't, and saying, what can I do to have a transition where my brain knows that I am now going from work to home, and I can focus on that.

And the pushback that I will get sometimes is, well, I'm always on call or no, I always have to be available. And I do believe we self-sabotage a bit sometimes by not recognizing that it's okay to take 15 minutes to go have a meal with your family, or go to the restroom, or take a shower. Like, it's an impossibility to be available 24/7, it's not sustainable.

And I think the best piece of advice that I took from my research was that you will have an endless to-do list and it is okay. And that, for me, shifted my mentality so much, because I would have this kind of reward system where it's like, okay, if I can cross three more things off of my list, then I'll pick a break or go do the thing.

And now I'm at a point where, you know what? I have a long to-do list, but that's okay. Sometimes I'll choose me or my family, or a break, or a trip, and I'll come back to it, and it'll be there. And I think that that gave me permission to pause, knowing that my performance is going to be enhanced when I take better care of myself. 

So, it’s really is shifting that narrative, and also recognizing what we're doing to get in our own way. Because it's really easy for me to blame the FBI for my burnout. They were part of it, but I was also perpetuating things and not doing what I needed to, to care for me.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, wow. Lots of great stuff in that. And I love, like, just the permission to pause, and to take that step, to take that moment, to be more intentional with our time. 

Our time is our most valuable resource, right? It's the one we don't get back. And how often we are consumed by work or everything else that's happening around us, and with the struggle to just be present with what's in front of us. 

And I like that you mentioned, like, even 15 minutes, for those of you who are listening, and are like, "But I don't have the time." It's like, little bits of the time, right? It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It doesn't have to be like, my entire existence needs to completely have an overhaul tomorrow. Which maybe it does, but, like, it's not realistic. So, yeah. I love that perspective.

And just getting people to a place where they know that their needs matter, especially, when you're working in an infrastructure where it's high pressure, and it's intense, and it's anxiety provoking all the time. Like, your nervous system does need that reset.

RACHEL MURDOCK: It does. And when people tell me they don't have time, one of the things that I'll ask them to do is, I'll say, take a look at your screen time usage on your phone, and see where we could carve in some time, right? Because we waste a lot of time mindlessly scrolling. And I get it, sometimes that's a reset. But if we could be more intentional with where we use our breaks, we all have time and can prioritize things that are important to us. It's just kind of having a plan and having that accountability. And that's what I like to do for individuals or organizations, is design a infrastructure that allows you to prioritize what's important to you and pause what isn't. Because no one at the end of their life is going to say, "Man, I wish I worked more." We're going to wish that we had spent more time doing the things we love with who we love. And we cannot do that by, you know, involving ourselves in the hustle culture.

PATRICK CASALE: So true.

RACHEL MURDOCK: That's unfortunately the way society is. But, you know, I'm old enough to remember that life wasn't always like this. Society wasn't always like it, and we somehow got by. So, we just need to kind of reset and figure out, you know, what it is that's getting in our way and being the change that we need for us, because it's going to take organizations a while to catch up.

But I'm not, you know, here to say like, “You should just leave your job if you're not happy.” But it's also okay to bet on you, and choose yourself, and prioritize your needs, because on the other side of it, I am so much happier and doing still really important work, but I feel so much better than I did about three years ago. I was not in a good place. And I do not think I would have survived, and not from a suicide standpoint, but more from a health standpoint, I was having some really crazy health things. And my doctor one day said, "This is overwork and overstimulation, and you have to change." And so, I did it.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, that's amazing, I mean, and it just goes to show you that it can be done. And I've had, you know, I don't know what episode you're going to be, but we're coming up on like 200 episodes now, and everyone's story is unique, but also similar. And the reality is so many of us have been in these positions where we have felt overworked, and underpaid, and underappreciated, and stressed, and stretched, and end up sick, and sacrificing our own physical and mental well-being all for something else that we don't necessarily always buy into 100% or isn't fully invested in us 100%.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Right.

PATRICK CASALE: And I know how scary it is to take these risks and take these leaps that we talk about on this podcast and have conversations about, but I don't think I've had a single person on here who said, you know, “I bet on me, I took that leap, it was scary, but it wasn't worth it.” And I used to ask that when I had my Facebook group open, which, I'll be honest, I don't know if I'm ever going to unpause it?

RACHEL MURDOCK: That ship has sailed.

PATRICK CASALE: You know what? I keep thinking, like, "Should I unpause it?" And every time I see the date, I'm like, push it back two months, push it back. 

So, I've asked that question in there too, “Does anyone regret their decision to take the leap?” And the answer has never been, yeah, I regret this decision. That doesn't mean that it's not hard. That doesn't mean that it doesn't come with its own unique set of challenges, and obstacles, and a lot of self-doubt and questioning too.

RACHEL MURDOCK: For sure. 

PATRICK CASALE: But it gives you control back. It gives you your agency back. It gives you autonomy to make your own decisions. I always joke that like I'm unemployable now, but that's probably true. But I don't think I could ever hand in a PTO request again. Like, I just don't think I can live and exist that way.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Yeah, I mean the amount of opportunities just to travel even. You know, I was with you and Gabrielle in Belize, I'm hosting my first retreat in the fall in Costa Rica for First Responder Therapist and like, that's just not stuff that was even on the radar. And it's just so freeing to think I can design this the way that I want to. And sometimes I don't do a great job, and I overextend, and then I learn, and then we pivot.

But it's just so cool to have the freedom to design things the way you want, when you want, and have the fear but say, what can I use for my journey to inspire others and teach others that it's okay to choose you? And as cheesy as that sounds, it's something that a lot of helpers and therapists struggle with because we feel selfish, or we feel like our needs aren't as important.

And I've been on that side, and the end did not look good. And so, I'm really happy to be able to say no and not feel guilty about it, not too guilty anyway, and be able to say like, no, I have some goals, and I'm going to meet them. And the journey may be bumpy, but it'll be worth it in the long run, for sure.

PATRICK CASALE: Love that, love that, congrats on the retreat by the way. I saw that posted. It's amazing.

RACHEL MURDOCK: I'm excited.

PATRICK CASALE: It's about doing that type of stuff, and, you know, getting excited, and being passionate, and kind of really allowing to pursue those things that light you up. So, I give you a lot of a lot of credit for your journey. It's an impressive one, for sure. If you haven't met Rachel or connected, definitely someone to have on your radar.

And I think that everything you just said is like the perfect summation. So, I don't really have a good final ending for this, but I really would love for you to share where people can find you if they want to hire you, if they want to come to the retreat, or anything else that you have going on. And we will include that in the show notes for everyone too, so that you have easy access to all of that information.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Yes. So, I will share my LinkedIn, my Instagram, and I've got a couple of Facebook pages, one including The First Responder Behavioral Health Network, which is where you can join the retreat. And then, I have Murdock Mindset Solutions, which is my coaching business. So, I will give all of the websites and links, and would be happy to connect and see how I can support you and your agencies.

And I think coming from a, you know, a very large politicized government agency, and also previously working in nonprofit, I've kind of spanned all of the different environments that we can be in, and I know the growth areas and challenges that I, you know, experienced, and also the transformations that we can see when we get the right support in there.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. That's so well said. Looking forward to spending more time together all over the world. I think you're coming to my Scotland summit and to New Zealand.

RACHEL MURDOCK: I am.

PATRICK CASALE: So, looking forward to that as well. And thanks for coming on here, making the time while you are actually doing a training somewhere else, multitasking.

RACHEL MURDOCK: Right, always. So, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

PATRICK CASALE: You're welcome. To everyone listening to All Things Private Practice, new episodes are out every single Saturday. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. We'll see you next week.