Episode 195: Centering Equity, Inclusion, and Accessibility in Group Practice [featuring Erica Smith]

Show Notes

In this episode, Patrick Casale speaks with Erica Smith about creating equitable and accessible workplaces in private practice. Erica shares candid, real-life stories of navigating the mental health field as someone living with chronic illness, and discusses the imperative of designing work environments that are truly supportive and accessible.

Top 3 takeaways:

1. Accessibility Goes Beyond Ramps: It means considering everything from office seating and safe, convenient entryways to virtual work options and clear communication about what your space does (and doesn't) offer.
2. Culture Starts with Transparency: Erica models being upfront with staff and clients about values, policies, and decision-making—including the challenges and financial realities of running an equitable group practice.
3. Intentionality Drives Inclusion: From pronouns on the website to supporting community initiatives and hosting know-your-rights cards in the lobby, every detail signals who you want to welcome and support in your practice.

More about Erica

Erica, a North Carolina native and clinical social worker, specializes in trauma, particularly interpersonal violence, racial trauma, and chronic/invisible illness, drawn from her personal experiences. She was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis and then Lupus (Systemic Lupus Erythematosus) at age 12 in 2003—also the year she experienced the sudden loss of her father—followed by Interstitial Lung Disease (ILD)  later in life. These events spurred her desire to help others, leading to international volunteering, non-profit work, and over 10 years as a therapist. Navigating chronic illness and being a Black woman taught her strategies to adapt and advocate. She now leads Whole Mentality, a Raleigh-based group practice focused on accessible and affirming mental health services.

• From Solo to Collective: Leading an Equitable Therapy Practice - for group practice consultation: itsericakendra.com/consultation
• Website: wholementality.com
• Social media: @wholementality and @itsericakenddra

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to All Things Private Practice. I'm joined today by Erica Smith, who is a native of North Carolina. And started their bio with, "I hate this, but it can be way shorter. And here is the gist."

So, I'm going to try to pick out some of the key points, group practice owner, therapist specializing in trauma, who has experienced a lot of chronic and invisible illness, specializing in racial trauma as well, a lot of experience with lived experience and all of these things. And really wants to talk today about creating a workplace culture that's accessible and equitable. And I think it's a great topic right now, as people are looking for places of employment that are supportive through navigating life with chronic illness over the last 19 plus years and 30 plus years as a black woman. Originally, normalized practices made adjustments prior to realizing that maybe this is just not normal for all people. Learned how to avoid stairs or prepare for them. Thank you, Google. Okay, jump right into that. Tell me about that.

ERICA SMITH: Yeah, so I was diagnosed with lupus and arthritis when I was 12. And fun fact about having arthritis in your knees as a young person is you don't realize how many things involve climbing, like, elevating environments. And sometimes stairs are really hard. Sometimes they're perfectly fine.

But anytime I would go to a new place, as technology progressed, so did the information or access to images of what something look like. And so, I learned to like pre-navigate environments before I would get there, which is actually kind of stressful to do. And I didn't even think about the fact that or communicate the fact that I was doing this. It just had become somewhat habit. And when everyone else is taking the stairs, and because I present as able-bodied, I don't always want to look for the elevator, because then are like "Well, why are you using the elevator." And there's this new assumption of laziness, which is a whole other podcast, use what your body needs.

I also don't love elevators for just like, sometimes they're small and creepy looking, and I saw a final destination, and so, you know, there's that. And so, I tended to work really hard to appear as able-bodied as possible, even to my own body's detriment at times.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

ERICA SMITH: And also, have lung disease, so sometimes I'd be gasping for air. And people like, "Are you okay?" And I'm like, "Sure, totally fine. Everything's fine. Nothing's wrong at all." But Mm-hmm (affirmative).

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, okay. Well, appreciate you sharing that. That's a good dive right in. It has nothing to do with our topic right now, but that's great to hear. It kind of does the, like, accessibility in a way, you know? And just how we often are trying to mask so hard to fit into society to be like, I don't want to stand out or draw attention to myself, or, you know, anything that even comes up as slightly and inherently internalized ableism, in some ways too where we're like pushing ourselves way beyond our capacity and limitations.

So, I've had the pleasure of meeting you twice already. You've facilitated some anti-racist, anti-oppressive workshops for my group practice. And I really like your style, because you are just very authentic, very real. I am the same way when I'm training, where I'm like, "Oh shit, I don't remember what I'm doing." Or like, "I'm a little distracted right now on whatever [INDISCERNIBLE 00:04:31]." So, I've really appreciated just the genuineness. And I want to name that if anyone's looking for a trainer or facilitator, Erica is really fantastic. So okay-

ERICA SMITH: Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: Let's dive in. You have a group practice here in North Carolina, in-

ERICA SMITH: In Raleigh.

PATRICK CASALE: Raleigh, yeah.

ERICA SMITH: In Raleigh, in Raleigh.

PATRICK CASALE: Okay, so tell me, you know, we can start anywhere you want, but thinking about your journey from solo practice owner to group practice owner, what's happening during those times?

ERICA SMITH: Yeah, I want to try to make this as succinct as possible. I'll start by saying my career path was never therapist. That was never the journey even in graduate school. People now laugh because they're like, "Not only are you a therapist, but you are a full on great practice owner."

And I started in community mental health, and that was my first introduction to like, mental health therapy careers, and the expectation that was placed on providers was absolutely unreal. But because of my personality type, if you give me expectation, I'm going to try to meet it, mostly, because I'm trying to appear as competent and as able as possible, to the point where I was getting very sick regularly. And of course, my health insurance was absolutely, can we say bad words?

PATRICK CASALE: We can say a lot of bad words.

ERICA SMITH: Absolute shit. Yes, my health insurance was absolute shit.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:05:50].

ERICA SMITH: And I was like, "We're on the air." But no. And so, that eventually led me think, as much as I loved the people I was supporting and serving, I thought I hated the field. I got another job for financial reasons at a group practice that was not community mental health, but they did accept insurance. And ultimately, I was in community mental health for four and a half years, in this group practice for five and a half years.

And the first couple of years, it just felt like rainbows and butterflies, because everyone was happy, and nice, and smiling. There was no billable expectation. You can make your own schedule. And then, because of who I am, I became more and more involved, and I, you know, had bills to pay, so I would work hard. And I just really started to realize I actually love what I'm doing. I just didn't love my previous work environment.

And then, 2020 happened. And a lot of conversations started happening. And I was pulled into conversations because I'm a, obviously, black person. I'm a black woman. I'm very open about that lived experience. And so, I was pulled into conversations around black in America, some of what was happening around racial justice issues. And then, I was promoted to a leadership position. And it's always very interesting when you get behind closed doors and environments, because you learn how people really feel about things.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

ERICA SMITH: And essentially, it came to light that our values were wildly misaligned. And, you know, just basic things like putting pronouns on a website was seen as not necessary because… And some of the conversation around that was like, "Well, I looked at these other majorly large conglomerate group practices, they don't put pronouns on websites. So, why should we do it?"

I'm like, "Well, why is the standard of care, one, a place of work where that turnover rate for clinicians is appalling, and the standard of care is not what people deserve, and that's your measurement of success, or measurement of like, what we need to do?" And there were lots of conversations around, like, pride flags. And there was a conversation around like, well, what will Christians think that they walk into this space and see a pride flag? And I had to leave.

And it was a hard decision, because I, for years, thought that I was sort of like, had like, you know, the what is it called? The glasses on, or whatever, everything seems pretty. Because I was also comparing it to my time in community mental health and…

PATRICK CASALE: Feels like a dream for the most part, yeah.

ERICA SMITH: So, after I had some assistance with my business coach and some friends, I went solo practice, and fortunately, I have started my private practice, like legally, a few years back because I wanted to see more pro bono clients, and they wouldn't let me into group practice. So, I started my private practice, essentially, just to be able to see more pro bono and, like [INDISCERNIBLE 00:08:52] clients.

PATRICK CASALE: Sure.

ERICA SMITH: So, all of the, like, nuts and bolts were there. So, when I moved into solo practice, I was working at a friend's space. And for a while I was just like, re-regulating my nervous system. So. I was completely self-pay. I knew that wasn't forever. But I was like, right now I just need to pay my bills, and sleep, and go to therapy, because I feel lots of feelings about what I thought was a really beautiful place to work.

And then, I started really thinking critically about what I wanted to do next. And for years, people had been asking me to open a group practice, but I have a history of doing what other people want me to do and not what Erica wants to do. And so, I was like, "This is not something one can do lightly, and I need to figure out this is what I want to do."

I had been supervising clinicians for several years prior to that, and really enjoyed that, loved that experience. I've been doing, like, consultations for EMDR. And I started training, and teaching, and doing some equity work, and I was really enjoying that. And so, I was like, there's clearly elements of, like, support and structure that I do really like. And there had been lots of initiatives I was trying to start at my old jobs just because I felt like they would be really beneficial to the clinicians and also to the community that we were supporting. And so, that's essentially how I came into I'm going to open a great practice.

And has it been a whirlwind? So, we officially opened June, like, I got the keys, like, in March or April of last year, and then I hired my first, well, the team that we have now in June of last year. And it has been a learning curve. Honestly, it's been fun. And it's been incredibly stressful. Like, I cannot downplay-

PATRICK CASALE: I think it's okay for both of those things to be true.

ERICA SMITH: I'm like incredibly friendly.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:10:38] trust me. I think a lot of people listening, they're like, "Yep."

ERICA SMITH: I remember being in my interviews, and my staff will tell you this too. They're like, I literally told them. I was like, "I'm going to offer you this job, but I need for you know this is a startup. I only know a third of what I'm supposed to know, and it's probably less than that, though I would love to work with you, and I need for you to know you're essentially coming to work at a startup. But here is why we're starting and here's what this place is about." And we were very open about that.

And you know, when I was looking for a space, I became very aware of how difficult it is to find an accessible building. And, you know, I had never really looked for my own office space before, but I was looking for a place with parking, an accessible parking, a place that either was on the ground floor and was accessible or had an elevator that would work regularly, because I've been in places where the elevator never worked or was like questionable and ideally, one with, like, accessible bathrooms, gender neutral bathrooms.

And it started to feel like I was asking for a unicorn that could speak French, because not just a unicorn, but one that spoke fluent French. And so, we found the place that I'm currently sitting in. It was kind of like this feels aligned. And is it a perfect space? Absolutely not. But one, I can access it, my body can access it. It's on the ground floor, which is really important. And now that I'm always lugging in more shit for something I'm like, "This is great." Because if I was taking this up and down the stairs, I'd have feelings about it.

And we have two single person bathrooms that are accessible, and just like accessible seating, comfortable areas, thinking about different personalities and what it means to be, like, potentially neurodivergent in this space, and just being really critical about, like, what are somethings that we can control and what are some things that we can name that we can't control?

And so, yeah, that is a very short version. If you want to buy the alcohol, I will give you all the nitty gritty tea of the dirty version, but that is a short version of what happened.

PATRICK CASALE: I hope that gets to happen at some point in time between the two of us, because I'd love to hear it. I'm sure listeners would too, you know? But it sounds like a lot of people's journeys in a lot of ways, you know? Accidental group practice ownership are like, hey, I want to create something that people aren't doing, because I don't want to treat people a certain way. Or I don't want to have people have certain job experiences. And certainly, leaving community mental health in that way too I was in the same boat, like, constantly sick, just all the things. And then, you know, in middle management never satisfying anyone, really tough place to be.

And then, I didn't go into group practice ownership, but I went straight into the private practice ownership. And I did kind of the accidental group practicing too, where my friend was just like, "Can you hire me?" During COVID. And I was like, "I help people build their practices. Like, I'll do that for you. I don't need to hire you." He's like, "No, I don't want to do any of the business shit." And I said very similarly, I was like, "This is going to be a guinea pig situation. Like, I have no idea what I'm doing." And there are days fast forwarding four years now, where I still feel that way.

And we've made big transitions of like 10-99, to W-2, to all the benefits and everything. And it's hard. It's hard because we try really hard to create, like, an accessible environment that feels really supportive. And I've always wanted to create culture where it was like, this is very different than what you're used to in community mental health, group practice, whatever. And it's hard to balance that with like, "But we have to pay the bills. We have to somehow pay for the benefits that we are we are offering."

And it's a hard mindset switch when you go from contractor to employee, because you go through autonomy. So, we have to have some guidance and accountability. And I hate that piece. But I think it's about the vision and the value, and that, for me, is what's important.

So, it sounds like for you, accessibility, really wanting to have a place where people feel really supported, especially, that you want to be supporting. And it's such a fascinating statement, right? Of like, what would Christians think if they came in and saw a pride flag?

My web designer was like, "If you say fuck on your homepage, you're going to turn off really conservative clients." And I was like, "Good, I don't fucking care. Like, that's not our goal." Right? Like, yes, we live in Appalachia… we don't have to be for everybody, and that's okay. And I think that for me, that is unbelievably important in all of this.

ERICA SMITH: Yes. And this is something that I was saying to people, because at my old job at the group practice that I worked at, I was a contractor. And so, I had started a website. I was saying things on my Psychology Today, intentionally, to weed people out. I had pronouns in my thing, because that was important to me, but also because I wanted you not to come if this is how you felt.

And I always say I had the privilege of being black, so obviously, racist clients do not come to my office. And so, I was having conversations with some of my supervisees. They're like, "How do you get these people out of your office?" And I was like, "Well, it's a great question. That's not a problem that I have, but here are some things."

And so, even on our website, in our lobby, it's very clear what our values are, and it's like front page, front and center, because we want you to go somewhere else. This is the Confederacy. This is the Confederate south. There are plenty of very conservative, value-aligned places for you to go.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

ERICA SMITH: This is not one of them. And being loud about that is very, very okay. And you know, we talk about voting and we talk about politics. So, I have my staff here. There's also a couple of clinicians that, like, they just use our space, but they work for themselves. And one of them was like, "We have [INDISCERNIBLE 00:19:01] in our lobby in English and Spanish." And one of her clients was like, "I saw these cards in your lobby. What is this about?" And I was like, "That's a you problem." And that clinician laughed. And we're always thinking about, like, what are things that we can do to support our community?

And we're doing a drive for… there's a new gender-affirming closet in Wake Forest, which is like 45 minutes from us, and so we're doing a clothing drive for them in the lobby. And like, everything that we do is very intentional, because we want to be very clear. Like, we are a space that welcomes humans. And it's okay to be very loud about that. And it's okay to recognize like, well, I'm going to support anyone who walks in my door. I'm also going to be very clear about my values. And as a social worker, I do not feel any shame around that. And I think-

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:19:58].

ERICA SMITH: …that is not something that was welcome and jobs passed. And so, even some of the things that our team says that they've experienced and their internships passed, I was like, "What was said to you? Yeah, that's not right. I don't think that's legal." Well, you know, I don't know what's legal anymore in this current iteration of America, but I don't think that it used to be legal.

And I think sometimes, you know, when I talk about accessibility people always go straight to wheelchair ramps and, you know, automatic doors, which matters. Like, those 100% matters. But I think, do whole people, do different types of people feel welcome in your space? Feel affirmed in your space? Like, they can access your space.

And when I'm working with other clinicians, one of the things I say is like, it's okay if you currently had a three-year lease on third floor office, that's fine. Do you communicate that clearly to people so they can make the choice versus being in a situation where they're stuck on the first floor because they didn't know? And so, what are ways that you can describe your office to people so they can make an affirming choice, or they can see you virtually, or they can see someone else.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

ERICA SMITH: Because they're not stuck in a situation where they are having to once again, feel othered because your space didn't communicate, because we weren't clear about what we were able to do, because bills are expensive, to your point. Like, everything is expensive.

PATRICK CASALE: And I think, you know, that gets that's a conversation for a completely different topic too, right? Like, in the accessibility piece, I love what you're saying of like, making it really clear, making it really transparent, and trying to think outside of the box, to think of everyone's comfort instead of our own.

And I think that's so often the case when we're, like, designing workplaces, or policies, or procedures, it's so easy to default into, like, this is the set of policies that people say they have. Or I bought this template from this person. Or like, to your point, I looked on other people's websites to see what they're doing. It's really easy to go into, like, black and white, cookie cutter, one size fits all approaches, but in reality, like you're mentioning, the lack of accessibility when you take that stance and that approach does mean that a lot of people that you want to support are not going to feel comfortable in some way or another.

ERICA SMITH: Yeah, yeah. And I think asking questions is so important. And so, you know, when I was doing a lot of this work and thinking about spaces, and I just ask people a lot of questions. I'm like, "What would be important to you in this environment? What would not be important to you?"

And the goal isn't to make everybody happy, because that's impossible. The goal is to sort of just think critically around, what can I communicate? What's within my control? What can I do? Sometimes sharing that, what can I afford? Like, I would love to have translation services available immediately for everyone. And I priced that, and that is a later thing. And so, just thinking through, like, what are ways that could communicate what we do and don't have?

And you know, even from just like having different types of seating in the lobby that different people can access. And, you know, I will say, being someone who's lived in my body, I am very aware of chairs. And because having arthritis in your knees, having lupus, like, you spend a lot of time getting up and down places, and some places are just really hard. And so, something like, the unaware things that I would do is I would scan a restaurant for seating and figure out where can I sit easily, or where it's going to be really hard for me to sit?

And that didn't become very clear to me until someone else pointed it out. And they were like, "Like, what is happening?" And I'm like, "Oh, I'm looking to see what seat I can get in and out of." Because for me, it was just what everyone does, but it's not. And so, sometimes even naming that, because I do work with a lot of clients who are also living with various chronic illnesses, sometimes me naming that gives space for people to be like, "Oh, this is something that I do. And I didn't think about the fact that, like, maybe this isn't usual." And I'm like, okay, so what are ways that we can think about this as we're making decisions.

And you know, right now, I just completely lost my train of thought. Yeah, what was I talking about just now? And this also happens to me, but yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I can relate. A hard relate to that. But I think that's such a great point, you know? Of paying attention to the accommodations that you're trying to build in for your own self on a daily basis, of how to make life a little bit easier, and then applying those. Because then the thought process is like, well, if I'm thinking about this, other people are thinking about this, right? Like, I'm not the only one who's experiencing this thing.

So, I like the intentionality behind that of like, "Hey, I'm going to take my lived experience, I'm going to translate it into how I kind of operate my business, and how I support my community and my staff."

Again, I just think that too many people don't do that, and it's not a knock on those of you listening or group practice owners who are like, no, it's very much like nine to five, in the office, like no other alternative options or expectations. But like, for me, I've always done things in a very unorthodox way, and I never knew why until recently. But ultimately, like, if you want to work telehealth, work telehealth, if you want to have office space, have office space. Like, giving options is important, and talking about why those options exist is important.

And like, I think transparency is a thing that also is missing from a lot of group practice cultures. And we might be a little too transparent with, like, here's the peak behind the curtain of all the numbers, here's why we have to do the things that we do. But I would rather give more information than less, because I've worked in environments where like it was always like these secret things where like nobody was ever in the know about anything, and you really can't understand why anything's being done. But you also feel like no autonomy or locus of the soul in your day-to-day. And that fucking sucks.

ERICA SMITH: Yes, yes. And I think, you know, we are also very open about lots of things. And sometimes I'm like, "Maybe you don't want to know this." So, I always tell people, like, you can tell me if you don't want to know this and they're like, "Erica, I don't care." But I want you to know what's going on. Because I also know that some of my staff is probably thinking about like, "Hey, do I want to do this someday." And I'm like-

PATRICK CASALE: Totally.

ERICA SMITH: …that's great. Like, let's talk about it. Here's how much we spend on these things. And you know, there are some things that I know I'm spending too much money on, because I'm like, I would rather have this version than that version, because this version is easier to me.

I was joking, we just switched to having, like, we have this big water filter thing in our lobby, and I now get the water jugs delivered, because I was lugging them in and it was like a whole exercise and mental strength. And so, now, I have to deliver it like once a month. And at first, I was like, "This is such a waste of money." And then, I was like, my body is fucking tired of lugging these things from the store to my car. It was just like a whole thing. And the first time the guy delivered it, he was like, "Are you okay?" I was like, "I'm just so happy to see you lugging these things in for me." And so, sometimes it's like, I'm doing this for my mental health not because I can't.

But other things, it's like, I clean our bathrooms, and I like, love Fridays, because I just clean the office. I'm like, it's something that I have full control over it's like cleaning the toilets, and I can do that. I listen to my audio books without drag-ins and it's great. And what more do I need? And so, yeah. But it has been very much a learning curve. I love it. And like, once a day I'm like, "Why did I do this?"

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, totally normal. I think about selling my practice every single day, every single year for the last four years. And I'm like, it'd be nice to just not be a part of this, not have to be responsible for other human beings live in a cabin in the woods where I don't have to talk to anybody at all, and it really does take up some space in my mind. But, you know, the community impact, and the ripple effect, and employing people, and giving the jobs feels more important to me than my sanity sometimes, so weighing out on the seesaw at the moment, but we'll see if it changes today or tomorrow, it could.

ERICA SMITH: You know, I feel that in my spirit.

PATRICK CASALE: It's a moment by moment existence. And I think when you're really trying to intentionally set something up and do things in a way that feels not only different, but the way you would want them to be, in order to give back to your community, to your staff, to make it as stressful as possible, it takes a lot of energy. And I think it's worth it, but I also think it can come with frustration and stress. And I think both can exist simultaneously.

ERICA SMITH: Yeah, yeah, yes. And, you know, it has been such a joy to get to meet the clinicians that we have on our team, and do fun shit with them, and commiserate the state of everything with them.

And, you know, we go to lunch, and sometimes we hang out, and sometimes I talk about my experience and my first job as a clinician, and they're like, "You did what?" I'm like, "This is what we all did." It's like, yes, I was in some stranger's house and no one knew where I was because I was doing at-home therapy, and they threatened to take me out back because they were mad at me, and no one would have found the body. But, you know-

PATRICK CASALE: True.

ERICA SMITH: Fun memory.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah [CROSSTALK 00:30:01]-

ERICA SMITH: [CROSSTALK 00:30:01].

PATRICK CASALE: We don't know what we don't know and we don't think we have any other options. And you're just kind of like, this is what you're supposed to do. And eventually, I'll burn myself out enough, or I become like this Gandalf, like, therapist, and then I can start my private practice. Then finally, I'm allowed to leave. And it's amazing how many of us put ourselves through the endless, like, bullshit, and burnout, and drain to our systems, and make ourselves sick, and then it's finally like, "Enough is enough." So, thankfully, there are opportunities out there for those of you listening, where you don't have to experience the things that we've experienced in order to have a career in mental health therapy.

ERICA SMITH: Yes, yes. And you can have mental health while trying to support mental health as much as we can while trying to support other people. And I'm grateful, like, for the most part, I like thoroughly enjoy coming to work every day, and that was not always my experience-

PATRICK CASALE: Love that.

ERICA SMITH: …as I sit here.

PATRICK CASALE: Feels the same way too, in a lot of ways. And I'm sure they also have days where they're like, "Fuck this. I don't want to do this part." But I bet the good days outweigh the bad significantly. It's a stressful job, it's a stressful career, it's a stressful path, but it is really worth it when we can kind of create and cultivate these types of cultures, experiences, and these types of settings. So, well done on everything that you're doing.

ERICA SMITH: Well, thank you, and thanks so much for having me.

PATRICK CASALE: You're welcome. So, everyone's least favorite part of the show where you promote something for yourself. So, tell the audience where they can find you and what you're offering. [CROSSTALK 00:31:49].

ERICA SMITH: Yeah. So, our practice is called Whole Mentality, W-H-O-L-E Mentality, and so that's where you can find us and our mental health stuff. And then, I have a consultation business called It's Erica Kendra, itsericakendra.com where I do equity consulting, and the big thing that has been requested most often lately is transitioning from solo to group practice. And so, that is my current offering is working with folks who are interested, who already have an established solo practice, but they are wanting to expand to group and I'm working with a group right now who's doing that expansion and I really enjoy the work. And if you've gotten a little bit of a sense, I'm very much about this is what I did. I don't think you should do it this way. And here are some steps.

And so, you know, we go over everything from your orientation manual to hiring practices, and also, like how to create a workplace culture aligned with your values. And so, if you're interested in that, you can find me on itsericakendra.com. And that's also my fun Instagram, where you'll see all kinds of bullshit and tomfoolery. So, that's where you find me.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:33:01] that one, I need to follow that. [CROSSTALK 00:33:02]-

ERICA SMITH: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: …group practice owner and I was like, "Yeah, that's cool." But okay, cool, cool, cool. All of that will be in the show notes for all of you to have access to. And again, I've hired Erica, can't recommend enough. So, you'll have all of those links and all of that information. Erica, thank you so much for coming on and making the time.

ERICA SMITH: Thanks for having me.

PATRICK CASALE: You're welcome. And to everyone listening to All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out on Saturdays on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week.