Episode 196: Discover the Spectrum of Self-Esteem—Unlearn the BS [featuring Donna Oriowo]

Show Notes

In this episode, Patrick Casale speaks with Dr. Donna Oriowo, an award-winning DEI advocate, international speaker, and certified sex and relationship therapist, as she discusses the complexities of self-esteem, particularly for Black women navigating supremacist and patriarchal cultures. Her perspective on self-esteem being shaped by collective experiences, rather than just individual actions, is powerful and eye-opening.

3 Key takeaways:

1. Self-esteem is not created in a vacuum: Dr. Donna reminds us that our sense of self-worth is deeply influenced by generational, cultural, and systemic forces—it's not simply a personal failing if you struggle.
2. Authenticity carries risks—especially for marginalized identities: Being "yourself" isn’t always safe, and the ongoing negotiation between authenticity and safety can be exhausting. It’s crucial to acknowledge the price people pay just to exist as themselves.
3. Community is essential for healing and growth: Dr. Donna encourages us to seek out affirming relationships and supportive spaces, reminding us that self-esteem and healing aren’t solo journeys—they’re collective processes.

More about Donna:

Dr. Donna Oriowo (oreo-whoa!) LICSW, CST, is an award-winning DEI advocate, international speaker, and certified sex and relationship therapist in the Washington D.C. metro area. Dr. Donna is the owner of private practice, AnnodRight, which specializes in working with Black women on issues related to colorism and texturism and its impacts on mental and sexual health. Dr. Donna specializes in working with Black women to feel Free, Fabulous, and F*cked! She is the author of Cocoa Butter & Hair Grease: A Self-Love Journey Through Hair and Skin and the host of a biweekly community space for Black women called In My Black Feelings. Dr. Donna collects inspiring quotes, eats donuts, loves pasta, travels to learn, gives COVID-safe handshakes, warm hugs, and (figurative) knocks on the head. 

Donna's book is called: Drink Water & Mind Your Business: A Black Woman's Guide to Unlearning the BS and Healing Self-Esteem

Dr. Oriowo served as DEI Co-chair and Communications Steering Committee Chair for AASECT. She is a member of the Women of Color Sexual Health Network (WOCSHN). She can be found on social media @Dr.DonnaOriowo. OR you can visit her on the interwebs at DonnaOriowo.com.

• Instagram: instagram.com/dr.donnaoriowo
• TikTok: tiktok.com/@dr.donnaoriowo
• Threads: threads.net/@dr.donnaoriowo
• Grab her book: drinkwaterbook.com

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the All Things Private Practice. I'm joined today by Dr. Donna Oriowo, LICSW, CST, an award-winning DEI advocate, international speaker, certified sex and relationship therapist in Washington, D.C. metro area. Dr. Donna is the owner of the private practice. I'm going to say this wrong, Donna, is it AnnodRight? [INDISCERNIBLE 00:01:21].

DONNA ORIOWO: You said it right first time, AnnodRight.

PATRICK CASALE: Which specializes in working with black women on issues related to colorism, and texturism, and its impacts on mental and sexual health. Dr. Donna specializes in working with black women to feel free, fabulous, and fucked. She is the author of Cocoa Butter and Hair Grease: A Self-Love Journey Through Hair and Skin. And the host of a bi-weekly community space for black women called In My Black Feelings.

Dr. Donna collects inspiring quotes, eats donuts, loves pasta, travels to learn, gives COVID-safe handshakes, warm hugs, and figurative knocks on the head. Just published and released a book called Drink Water and mind Your Business: A Black Woman's Guide to Unlearning the BS and Healing Self-Esteem. Did I miss anything?

DONNA ORIOWO: You did not.

PATRICK CASALE: Okay. Well, I love it. Congrats on the book release. I know it's a huge deal and I know it's a huge emotional journey.

DONNA ORIOWO: Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. So, when did this come out, by the way? It's recent, right? Because you're just holding it in your hand.

DONNA ORIOWO: Yes, the book actually from today comes out next week, on Tuesday the 13th.

PATRICK CASALE: I got to order that and I got to order your other one. I think both would be amazing books for my wife. And so, tell me a little bit about this newest book, because that's what you wanted to talk about today, was the self-esteem piece. So, take us on that journey.

DONNA ORIOWO: Well, how do I start? I feel like people will often say that self-esteem is your own fault, right? That if it's slow, you failed, that you didn't like yourself enough, that you didn't care about yourself enough, you didn't show up for yourself enough. And for me, the problem is that no one is looking at the world around us or acknowledging how self-esteem was never self-taught, and that self-esteem is just not created in a bubble, which means it was created with white supremacy in mind, and supremacy culture as a whole in mind, which our parents, our grandparents, and even our great grandparents were subjected to.

So, if we're going to disrupt the narrative, if we're going to live a life of pleasure on purpose, then it will require us to actually divest from the messages that do not belong to us and build an affirming community that will help us with our self-esteem.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. So, if I'm hearing this correctly, it sounds a lot like conversations we've had on this podcast before about the correlation between impostor syndrome, and colonialism, and white supremacy, in a lot of ways.

DONNA ORIOWO: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Because-

DONNA ORIOWO: And I hate impostor syndrome. I'm just like, I don't subscribe. I'm like, is it impostor syndrome if you know that people don't want you to be present?

PATRICK CASALE: Right, exactly. And that's the big statement, right? And I used to use that term so freely and so often in my work. And then, I realized, like, this is really what this is, right? White supremacy culture and colonialism. And if we are also in like patriarchy, and the messaging has constantly been, like you said, for generations, you're not good enough, you don't belong, we just let you be here, so to speak. Of course, there would be that self-doubt experience, right? Like, why would you not doubt yourself in those moments?

DONNA ORIOWO: Exactly. If you're telling me I don't belong, then I would doubt that I belong here. And I think that it sort of contributes to a specific type of self-esteem. So, in the book, I talk about self-esteem more on a spectrum than on a binary of you have it or you don't have it. And one of the things that I talk about is damaged self-esteem. And it's for people where, like, you'll give them the self-esteem evaluation, and they'll score pretty well. Like, "Oh, you seem to like yourself."

But if you ask them, they'll tell you that they have pretty low self-esteem. And it's like, well, why this disconnect? Well, the disconnect is because they're responding to the world around them, and how the world sees them, and accepts them, and experiences them, not necessarily the world within them, and how they see and experience themselves. So, there is a disconnect of, I mean, I think I'm okay, but no one else thinks I'm okay, so I must not be okay.

PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah, exactly. So, that's a very powerful statement. And I imagine experience for a lot of people, especially, people who are multiply marginalized in society. How do you work through that though? How do you connect to that sense of self and really anchor into it?

DONNA ORIOWO: I love this question. For me, the first part is always having a really clear understanding of how it even got to where it is, to understanding not just what self-esteem is by definition, but also in context, and sort of like the, what's the origin story of your self-esteem? I think that sometimes we try to divorce self-esteem from self-concept, and I don't think that you can actually separate the two, because if one is how you feel, then the other one is what you know.

And the question is, how do you feel about what you know? And you have to place it back within the context. What were you allowed to learn about yourself versus what does someone expect you to do just because you were so and so's child, or so and so's uncle, or aunt, or whatever, right? Like, we have our identity relative to others and our identity relative to ourselves. I think that these things impact how we feel about ourselves, based off what they said, based off how they experienced us, and that becomes foundational.

So, if we don't really have a true understanding and a definition of self-esteem, I think it's kind of hard to even begin to fix it or heal it, or what have you, because we're not even on the same page when we're talking about it. Some people will say self-confidence and self-confidence is not self-esteem. It is related to self-esteem, but it's not the same thing. So, all the little self hyphens, we're not often talking about the very exact same thing. And for me, it's how are we operationally defining our terms? And then, are we asking ourselves the question of, have we been taught to value the thing anyway?

PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah. And that makes a lot of sense. It starts to get into that, like, almost core belief, foundational perspective when you take a look at yourself from the outside. I imagine that's where you see a lot of like masking, and assimilating, and almost, like, having to be different people in different rooms and different environments based on what you think other people expect out of you.

DONNA ORIOWO: Yeah, and especially, when your safety is involved. I am on record as having said that sometimes that piece, I know we're always talking about authenticity and how people should be their authentic selves, but I don't know that we're always having the conversation about the risk of authenticity.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

DONNA ORIOWO: What it might cost you and that it can cost you everything up to your very life. So, if you could die being authentic, is it worth it to you? Now, for some people it is, and for other people it's not. And I wouldn't say that you should or shouldn't do, right? But I will say that there are various risks that I don't know that we always talk about, that I like to bring back into the space when I'm having a conversation, especially, with a client, about self-esteem and authenticity, and whether or not they understand what they may be risking by being inauthentic and what they would be risking by being authentic.

PATRICK CASALE: Such an important statement, like so powerfully said, too. And you know, I do a lot of work in the autism ADHD spaces, so…

DONNA ORIOWO: Yeah, I know.

PATRICK CASALE: We talk a lot about unmasking, right? And like, there's always got to be the asterisk, though, that it has to be done in a safe way, because unmasking fully is not truly accessible or safe for people who are black, brown, trans, et cetera. And there is a significant, like, risk. And like you said, it could be your life. So, having to really decide what feels most important in these moments, and when do I want to truly be my true self? Because there are going to be situations and environments where it just may not be a safe option.

DONNA ORIOWO: Yeah. I mean, sometimes I find myself asking, like, I ask myself, like, okay, how yourself can you be here? What version of you are you allowed to bring into this space? When I'm in my house, I can be whatever I am am, right? Like, it's naked, it's real, it's raw, it's whatever it is. At my mother's house, same. Like, I know that some people, they don't cuss around their parents because they're not allowed to, they're not allowed to be their full selves, even within the context of their parents. I'm like, well, at my mom and daddy house, I be cussing. Me and my sisters, because we want what we want. We say what we want. We are open and free. And, you know, there's a weirdness sometimes. Like, sometimes it feels a little awkward, but then, we just sort of settle… We allow the awkwardness to be there, and then we just settle into whatever it is that we are.

Now, when I was invited to Utah to do a conversation on power, and supremacy, and how to integrate that into conversations around sex and sexuality, it was no different. I still showed up as myself, I still said the truth, but it was relative to my safety.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely.

DONNA ORIOWO: If I say everything I want to say, particularly, in the way that I would like to say, it, will I be able to go home?

PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And that's, you know, I think for those of you listening, you know, that can be a really case-by-case basis for a lot of people, depending on your identity, because I know for me, I have an enormous amount of privilege, right? Like, I acknowledge I'm a Cishet white man, and if I didn't talk about being autistic all the time, and I never mention my Jewish heritage, just for safety reasons, for a lot of purposes, I can go into almost any environment and be myself without really having to think about it. Like, I don't have to think much about the repercussion or the consequence, and I have to be aware of that constantly when I'm talking about how to help other people in entrepreneurial spaces, because if you don't look like me, and you share different identities, you're right, you have to be so hyper-aware of your surroundings, and your environment, and the people that you're with and the messaging that you're kind of disseminating. And I imagine that takes an enormous amount of mental energy, too.

DONNA ORIOWO: Yeah, I often wonder what black people, what black women, what trans women, what anybody, fat people, everything, what would we be doing if we weren't expending so much energy for protecting our right to our humanity, to our personhood, to negotiating our safety, to negotiating authenticity? Because quite frankly, it's a mind fuck.

And like I spoke earlier about, like, there are consequences to being inauthentic too, and usually, those are by way of anxiety, depression, disembodiment. Like, it's hard to be in your body. It's hard to be your most creative self. It's hard to be your most centered self, your most aligned self, when you're constantly worried about your safety and your well-being.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, absolutely, because you kind of are, you know, fragmenting yourself in a way, in terms of not even dissociation, but sometimes, yes. But there's this almost lack of accessibility to your true self in those moments that can lead to enormous amounts of burnout too, because it takes so much mental energy to shift and shape into all of these different people that you have to be in different environments. It's really hard to access true self in those moments, too.

DONNA ORIOWO: Yeah, it's exhausting. Like, I don't know anyone, especially, recently, who hasn't just been so exhausted, exhausted by this administration, exhausted by the work, exhausted by what it means to show up in this space or that space. I'm finding that more people are wanting to just be at home and not talk to anybody. And the constant negotiation of self in various spaces, it's an exhausting venture.

I know that for me, I spend a lot of time considering what areas I'm willing to be in, and what it's going to cost me to be there, and if I want to pay that cost.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, there's a taxation on it, right? Like, it's almost this cost/benefit analysis in almost every environment and situation of is this going to, you know, take from me? Or is this going to fill me up? Is this going to energize me, or is this going to be something that is going to create significant mental anguish and risk? And I think having to do those mental gymnastics on a constant basis has got to be demoralizing too, and create this, like, detachment from self-esteem in a way where it's like, I don't feel safe or comfortable showing up, and this then, is a reflection on me.

DONNA ORIOWO: Absolutely. And I think that when we talk about self-esteem overall, it is often devoid of conversations about negotiating supremacy culture as well. So, it's easy to have an individualized, "I'm going to blame you for it." While you have decided to completely ignore the impact of colonialism, the impact of white supremacy, of male supremacy, of able-bodied supremacy, right? Like, the world does not have equal access for everybody's body, and if we continue to ignore that, then we do a disservice when we talk to anybody about self-esteem, because you haven't even acknowledged that they learned a type of self-esteem where they may show up very differently in like an all-black environment, versus how they may show up in an all-white environment.

And it's funny ironic, it's not funny, haha, but it's something that I've spoken about before. I'm like, where dark-skinned people, dark-skinned women, if there's just dark-skinned women of all kinds in one space, the second a light-skinned person walks into the space, the conversation is now changed, because people tend to defer to power, to the power of that person's skin. Where black people are present when a white person walks in, there's a deferment to power, because power has walked in.

So, not acknowledging how that impacts how we feel about ourselves in any given moment, what we know about ourselves and what we know about ourselves in context to whatever power structures are around us, or whatever power players may be in the space with us, not acknowledging that is a disservice to everybody involved when we are having a conversation about self-esteem. And I think that's part of the reason why it's been such a reductive conversation where it's just like, you just didn't love yourself enough and do better where it's an individualized sort of assignment of blame, as opposed to a recognition that, yes, we have accountability, because we play a role in the outcome, but that the way the system is set up is not our responsibility.

PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah, absolutely, really well said. So, how do you shift into that space you know, where it's like, from self-blame to more communal accountability and support?

DONNA ORIOWO: I mean the main word there, communal. You have to actually find the right communities.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

DONNA ORIOWO: Like, yes, you have the family that you're born into, but sometimes the family that you're born into is not actually good for your mental or emotional well-being. So, finding your tribe, finding your family, finding your people, ends up being paramount in the conversation of, how do we move forward? So, finding the right people, speaking to your expectations, you know? Like, write out a little friend job description, a lover job description, a family member job description, what you want. And then, talk about it, seek it, and remove yourself when love is no longer being served.

PATRICK CASALE: Powerful, for sure. I like that. I think that's a great, like, exercise that you could do on a pretty consistent basis to kind of say, like, almost reevaluating who you're spending your time with, and your energy, and where you're showing up, because otherwise it does feel quite draining and almost like expectation, and almost burdensome in some ways too, and that stuff doesn't feel good either.

DONNA ORIOWO: At all.

PATRICK CASALE: At all.

DONNA ORIOWO: I mean, even, like with the way that I divided the book, right? It's mind over matter, and mind your matter. So, mind over matter is that thing that people constantly tell people. Like, "Oh, put your mind over your matter." And for me, it's like, well, you need to understand what the matter is that you're trying to put your mind over and then minding your matter is actually now paying attention to it and doing whatever your role is. So, the book is divided into, here's what you should know, and then here's what you can do.

PATRICK CASALE: I like that.

DONNA ORIOWO: But in addition, because I think maybe in some ways, I'm an overachiever, slightly perfectionist, and I'm still working on me.

PATRICK CASALE: Just own it. It's okay, you know?

DONNA ORIOWO: I also created a free workbook, because I know that I don't like writing in my books, so I created a free workbook, fillable, and all that that goes with the book. It's a companion piece to get people to ask themselves the question, to actually sit in it. And this book is not intended to be done solo. It's intended that, yeah, you may read it solo, but I would prefer you did it with people, other people who can you can have conversation with and who can hold you accountable. It's a community-building exercise, and you don't build community by yourself, just like you don't build self-esteem by yourself, you know?

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. I mean, I love the way you've structured that too, and kind of broke that apart. Because so often, I think we see these books that it's just one or the other, right? Without really going deep into the meaning, into the behind-the-scenes, in the context, and it's just kind of like, "Here's what you can do."

And people kind of feel shitty when they're like, "But I don't understand why I'm struggling with this. Like, I don't understand why this has impacted me. So, I can't do it." And then, they kind of just give up on it. So, I think that sounds way more empowering and affirming to say, like, here's the context, here's why this is the experience, and here's how we can, like, work together to kind of come out of this as well. So, that sounds really cool. I'm going to share it with my staff as soon as we get off of here and my wife.

Do you want to talk about the vulnerability of book writing and publishing at all if you've experienced it, not if you were like, "This was fucking great. I never questioned myself. It was amazing." That's fine, too.

DONNA ORIOWO: No, I definitely questioned myself. There was a point where I was just like, well, your self-esteem is not perfectly manifested in all moments, in all times. So, how are you an authority?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, who am I to do this?

DONNA ORIOWO: I had to also remove myself from that. It took a while. Like, I was just like, well, just because you don't know all doesn't mean you don't know enough to have this conversation.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

DONNA ORIOWO: And if I'm waiting to be a perfect representation of X, then I will never do Y, because I will never be perfect. I will always be a work in progress, or a person in progress. I'm always learning. I'm always growing. So, for me, that was a huge part for me. Like, "Who are you to write this thing?"

And then, I also figured out my solution as well, because I don't like, and some people would say it's because of, that like, "Oh, this is your low self-esteem moment." And I don't, I disagree with that, but I don't want to be THE, T-H-E, person for this. I think that that in itself is another lie that we tell ourselves, that there is an expert, and that that one expert is the one that all people should defer to. And I think that we all have expertise, and that it bears hearing how other people are framing a similar conversation. Quite frankly, I believe that we're all having repetitious conversations, often about the same concepts using different words.

PATRICK CASALE: Totally.

DONNA ORIOWO: Part of what I did is I interviewed a few people to ask them, specifically, about their definition of self-esteem, what they see based off the angle that they do this work. And I put it on the book website where anybody can go and access those starting on the 13th. It's only a few episodes, and I intend to do more. But I was just like, well, to me, it feels more valuable than just having the one voice say the one thing about self-esteem. It's more valuable to have multiple voices so that you can find yours within the brunch and know that you're allowed to have a voice in this conversation.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that, because when you're talking about this concept, right? If there's this one expert or person that people defer to, it almost detaches you from your own self-esteem in terms of like, can I anchor into like, what I think is right, or what I think works for me, instead of deferring to someone else? So, I really like that. That sounds like you really intentionally laid this out. So, congrats on this, because publishing a book is not an easy task, and [CROSSTALK 00:26:45]-

DONNA ORIOWO: [CROSSTALK 00:26:45] easier than doing a TED talk.

PATRICK CASALE: Fuck, yeah, that was hard. I don't speak like that. You know, like that was a very hard experience for me, because my speaking is always improvisation, and like, picking up on the energy of the audience about, like, what do people need in this moment? So, having to rehearse something scripted and then memorize it was fucking horrifying. Not for the faint of heart, publishing a book, TED Talks, any of this stuff. But I think by putting yourself out there, you are kind of moving towards some of that, like, self-esteem, self-preservation, having that voice be heard in whichever format. And I think that's a really powerful thing.

DONNA ORIOWO: Thank you. It's also a very scary thing, Like, there are pieces of me in this book, like pieces of my story, giving people a glimpse into how I see the world and how I see this concept, there is a nakedness that sort of happens in doing that type of thing. And then, it's like, so, wait, I wrote it, and now other people are supposed to read it? That part is-

PATRICK CASALE: It's vulnerable as hell.

DONNA ORIOWO: The writing part was hard enough, but the giving it over for other people's eyes, for other people's thoughts, because this thing, it's like it stops belonging to you. It's like, yeah, you wrote it, but it's not yours anymore. The best of writing, it was yours, your thoughts about what you read when you read it over, those are yours. But this thing no longer belongs to me, and now belongs to whoever picks it up, whoever reads it, and whatever thoughts, feelings, behaviors come from it, they may be attached to the book, but the book is not mine in that sense anymore.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. Yeah, there's a lot of vulnerability in that, in putting it out into the world and having other people be able to critique and pick it apart, or hear, and understand some of you and your story. There's just massive vulnerability in that. But I think it's a beautiful, like, duality too, of putting yourself into the world like that and allowing other people to have that glimpse. And it's a humanizing experience, I think, when people read stuff where you bury your soul and put yourself into it. It kind of creates this, like, affirming, humanizing, I'm not alone experience. And I think that is so fucking powerful.

DONNA ORIOWO: I agree. There's something about it that it's magical because it feels like a one-to-one conversation, but with a book. And I know what I get from reading, and I'm a pretty avid reader. I'm definitely an avid reader. I have limits to how much I'm allowed to read in a year. So, I'm on 20 books this year. And I'm not supposed to read more than 20.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, sure. You sound like my wife. My wife is in two book clubs. She is constantly reading. I think she has read like, what is it? April, May? Like 40 books already, and I haven't even picked one up off my shelf. And I'm like, "I feel so bad about myself." I'm like, "Damn." But-

DONNA ORIOWO: Don't feel bad. We all have different capacity.

PATRICK CASALE: I know, I know. I used to love it and, like, I just can't access it as much anymore. So, it's been hard, but I love that for everyone who is like, "Hell yes, I want more book clubs, more books, more apps where I can track how many books I…" What is it? "Good reads." Like, she's on all the things.

DONNA ORIOWO: Yeah, the reason I've got StoryGraph. StoryGraph is my favorite to track.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:30:31]. I have to tell her that because, like, yeah, it's amazing. I watch her, like, she'll be like, holding her Kindle, walking through the house, and like, "You're going to fall, you're going to, like, trip on something and fall." Because she's, like, so immersed in what she's doing.

DONNA ORIOWO: I do the same thing. I have to stop doing it on the stairs.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep.

DONNA ORIOWO: I mean, I definitely stubbed my toe one time because I was not paying any level of attention. But, I mean, I was paying attention to the book, just not my surroundings. And I always have a book with me.

PATRICK CASALE: I mean, I love it. As someone who is working actively on writing and publishing a book, like, admittedly, I'm not reading any books, so I need to get back on that, because I'll just reread The Lord of the Rings books or whatever, over and over and over again. So, I just kind of [CROSSTALK 00:31:13]-

DONNA ORIOWO: There's some value in that. Like, I don't count my rereads when I count my total reading, never. But like, I reread certain books because you changed. The words didn't, but you did. It means that your experience, and what you get from the thing has now evolved in every rereading and something as complex as the World of Lore that was built there, is it Tolkien?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DONNA ORIOWO: I'm like, that's amazing stuff. I'm like, I'm starting over and reading the Wheel of Time series. So, there's like 15 books in that series, about 1000 pages a piece. So, I'm just like, "Well, I'm starting over, because I got to number three, put it down for several weeks, which turned into a year, and now I don't remember." So…

PATRICK CASALE: Sure.

DONNA ORIOWO: [CROSSTALK 00:32:09] over.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that, though, that's amazing. Amazing, amazing, amazing. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Like, you reached out to me about coming on, and I was excited, because we had briefly connected, and just really happy and excited for what you're creating and putting into the world. And just want to say congratulations to you. Obviously, tell the audience where they can find your books, and your stuff, and we will link it in the show notes as well, so everyone can have access to everything that Donna has created.

DONNA ORIOWO: Absolutely. The book will be wherever books are sold, but you can certainly check drinkwaterbook.com. It will have all book news, including the links to be able to access like the free workbook and the videos that I spoke about. And it's on my website, so then you found me.

PATRICK CASALE: Okay, and we will have all of that in the show notes, so that you have access to this and the book, Drink Water, Mind Your Business: A Black Woman's Guide to Unlearning the BS and Healing Self-Esteem coming out next week.

I don't know when this episode will air, but it will be out by the time that it comes out, so you will have access to that as well. Thank you so much for coming on and making the time. This has been a really cool conversation.

DONNA ORIOWO: Thank you for having me.

PATRICK CASALE: You're welcome. And to everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out on all Saturdays on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week.