Episode 86: Don't Talk About Struggle? F*ck That! [featuring Nam Rindani]

Show Notes

"Success is hidden in the struggles. Happiness is hidden in what hurts."

There's an unsexy side to entrepreneurship that often gets overlooked and not talked about even though it is also more common than the glamorous shell that many entrepreneurs put online. The persona of the rich entrepreneur sitting on a beach drinking cocktails is often a far cry from reality.

However, within the very real struggles that fill the everyday lives of those of us paving our own way, there are hidden rewards and joys.

If you are an entrepreneur in any capacity, then this episode is for you.

In this episode, I speak with Nam Rindani, therapist, owner of Ebonessence Coaching and Consulting, and parent, about the reality of living as a caretaker of a chronically ill child while running businesses.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Understand the many reasons and ways that entrepreneurship can weave into and support different ways of life.
2. Learn how to embrace and talk about struggles instead of hiding behind a facade to increase connection and community while repelling those who don't lift you up.
3. Get a glimpse into Nam's experience of living as a caretaker of a chronically ill child while running businesses.

As Nam said, there's a fundamental question to ask yourself as a business owner... Don't ask what you want. Ask, what hurts, what sucks about your life? Then develop your business in a way that honors that and can also respond to that.

More about Nam:

Nam Rindani is a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in working with men and their relationships through her teletherapy practice, Ebonair Virtual Counseling Services, and she also runs support groups for therapists with her business, Ebonessence Coaching and Consulting. Her clinical experience spans two continents and multiple languages as she practiced therapy in India serving the marginalized before moving to the United States. Nam served as Prelicensed Chair of San Diego CAMFT in 2015 and is also a founder and co-moderator of a large online community, Therapists In Private Practice, where she found her passion for engaging and moderating difficult yet necessary conversations about topics of systemic injustice, marginalization and oppression within and outside the therapy field. Nam believes that by opening up conversations where the marginalized are heard and the unassuming oppressive groups are informed, we can begin to build bridges and close gaps that have plagued communities for generations.

Nam's Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/TIPPgroup

Nam's website: ebon-essence.com

Want more info about Nam?... Just Google Nam Rindani.

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A Thanks to Our Sponsor: The Receptionist for iPad!

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey everyone, you're listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale, joined today by a very good friend of mine, Nam Rindani. And Nam, it has been a year and a half since I started this podcast, and you, in an ideal world, would have been guest one or two. And today we're going to talk about the reality of living as a caretaker of a chronically ill child, and running businesses, and just being a human, and sharing your story. And I am so happy that you're on here right now.

NAM RINDANI: I am so happy that I finally was able to have all things line up to be here because in an ideal world, and you know this, I would have said yes the first time. And this is, I think, a segue into the topic already.

I live a kind of a unique life where even though I'm a sole proprietor, and I'm an entrepreneur, a lot of what I do and how I show up is connected to so much else in my life that as much as we live in a culture of "Hell, yes." My reality is, "Hell yes except maybe let me check it."

So, I appreciate you waiting for a year and a half. I'm really jazzed I'm here, finally,

PATRICK CASALE: I would have waited another two and a half years, to be honest with you, and the acknowledgment of like, I know your inner world, probably, more than a lot of people who are probably listening and either do know you or don't know you, maybe just know you as a Facebook personality. But that's how you and I became friends as Facebook personalities, and as a lot of us did over the last couple of years. And then, we actually met in person. We found out we were both real human beings, which was really awesome. We still like each other after meeting, which I think is an accomplishment.

But you know, I don't say this lightly, as you know I don't mince words and I don't say things just for effect, I just find you unbelievably inspiring, and your story, and your courage to show up, and just the realness, and the authenticity that exists. I mean, I think that's why we're friends. And I think that's why we've stayed connected. But it's so powerful.

And I don't want to use the word courageous because I feel like that is more so like really minimizing reality. But in reality, like, your day-to-day is complicated. And I know how challenging it is to say, "Yes, but let me check." Or, "Yes, but I may have to cancel or reschedule." Or, "This probably isn't going to happen." And I know that we've had conversations about how challenging it can be to have these goals and these visions as a business owner and to just be like, "I really don't fucking know how I can plan or strategize because my kiddo is sick."

NAM RINDANI: So, in my story, Patrick, this is something that I think about a lot, and I haven't really shared it very publicly, there is a very unique thing that kicked in to my life when my four-year-old, who was two and a half at the time, out of nowhere was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes because of COVID exposure, came out of nowhere.

The thing that really changed how I have to exist, especially, as a business owner is no matter what I want to do, or no matter what my 3:00 AM, like, creative idea is, there was a time in my life where I would get an idea at 3:00 AM and by 6:00 PM that same day I would have clients. I work really quickly because that's how I work. However, with the complicated life that you're talking about that I live, it's really strange because my brain and my entrepreneurial spirit is not sick. My body is not chronically sick. It's someone I look after who is, and so, my brain keeps working like it did four years ago. But my life doesn't support the way my brain works at all.

And so, a lot of what you have had front row seat to is my spirit and my brain continuing to work, but nothing in my life sort of lining up to make that happen. And I honestly think there are more of us out there, just business owners with really difficult lives. And I don't think that's talked about enough. So, I appreciate you even bringing this up because nobody actually talks about it.

PATRICK CASALE: I appreciate you being willing to share this too because I know this is not something that is publicly talked about very often. And, you know, it's not the sexy entrepreneurial subject, right? Like, it's like, if we are looking at the facade of small business ownership it's like feet up at a beach, and like, look how easy life is, and all the things that come with it. But in reality, for so many people, that's not reality, whatsoever.

And I imagine it's got to be so… I mean, we're talking about nuanced layers of challenge here, right? But how challenging it has to be for your entrepreneurial brain, and your brain, and your own neurodiversity, you know, kicking in, and all the ideas, all the all the excitement, but to then have that like, that stop-gap of like, no, this can't happen yet. Or like, I don't know if this can happen, or we need to lock this away for a later time, and maybe come back to it because really, right now in present-day that doesn't support what needs to be done because what needs to be done is I need to ensure that, you know, my child is functional, and as healthy as can be, and getting through all these moments of crisis.

NAM RINDANI: Yes, so speaking of how unsexy it actually is, I have had, in fact, this happened recently, to give the listeners a sort of glimpse into what we're talking about, where I was having my, what coaches would describe as the ideal day, all fluffy clients, five guys, I specialize in working with men, so those days are really important to me. I'm on a roll, I'm going about from session to session, and everyone's blood sugar's tank, and they tank in very dangerous ways. And I had to step out of the session, go prick his finger to get, you know, a blood test. And I came back. And I realized before I turned my camera back on that there was blood on my fingers. I quite literally had to wipe off blood, turn my camera back on, and just pick up the conversation like none of that has actually happened.

And that is unfortunately not that rare. That is a symbol of how I have to show up in therapy sessions. It's how I show up for my business ideas, for podcast interviews, everything in my life now comes with a disclaimer.

And when you live and work like that, it challenges everything we have been taught. And that is the hard part because there are no books about this. Like, even as therapists, right? I'm sure there are a lot of trauma therapists that listen to this podcast, we do trauma work and trauma is like this recovery process, and EMDR sessions, and brain spotting. But the life I live is one where trauma is a part of my daily life. And you know that-

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:08:00] times.

NAM RINDANI: …where I've had to bounce out of text conversation saying, "I don't know if everyone's going to make it through the day today." Right? And so, when that is the life you live, I've had to develop a very, very different skill set, which is your baseline way of living in crisis. And what you do to sort of feel creative and be calm, or the equivalent of like feet on a beach looks dramatically different, like dramatically different. And so, because I go from crisis to crisis, but I also have to maintain businesses, where I still have to serve clients. Like, they care about what's going on in my life, but they're there for that one hour where I need to show up. They can't care beyond a certain point.

And so, to find that balance between I just, you know, wiped off tears because I was scared my kid wasn't going to make it and now I'm back talking about my client's marriage, to be able to hold that, there are no coaches who talk about it, there is nowhere in the therapy world where we're taught these clinical skills. It's sort of learn-as-you-go. And I will say, at the sake of sounding arrogant, I've gotten pretty good at it. Like, this has now become my pride and joy of being able to feel successful while doing both of these things all the time.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I was paying attention to your posts the other day, you mentioned probably that exact scenario that you're referencing and how that felt like success for you and how nobody's talking about the fact that this is happening to other people.

And I think that's why so often, like, I think, a simple text of like, I don't know how you do it, or like this is so much, or wow, this is just like getting adapted to constant crisis feel so minimizing to the actual experience and I think it's like, why even send that fucking message at this point in time because I know is that doing more for me than for you, right? At that point in time. Is like, I can't even imagine what it's like to operate second by second like that. And I know so many people who have a significant amount of privilege who'd just be like, "Well just do this. Or, "Have you tried this?" Or, "Have you considered like, operating life like this." And it's like, this doesn't fucking work for me.

And this is again, like square peg, round hole situation, right? Like, this is a situation where we're not talking about the fact that you're a caretaker, and this is not going to change. So, you have choices here, and you've made the decision, like, I am going to fucking persevere through this because that's the only way I know how to do that.

And for those of you who don't know Nam's story, like, you're a fucking survivor, right? Like, I know your story, I'm not going to disclose what you don't want to disclose, but you've been through some shit, and you're here, and you're figuring it out. And I think that's the really unbelievably powerful message that you're sending when you post about like, this was my last hour of my life, this is what it looks like.

NAM RINDANI: You know I appreciate you noticing that. It's rare to be seen for something like this. There's something that I wish others who lead difficult lives for different reasons fully knew that I now know about myself, which is, of all the things that I have gone through, and you're right, I've been in terrorist bombings, I've been kidnapped, and assaulted. Like, it's pretty dramatic shift.

All of those things that I went through, none of it was ever connected to my greatest joy in my life. And I knew early on that my joy is actually my work. If I could go work my play, Patrick, I would because it's not my job. Like, that has been something that truly helped me get through it all. And being a caretaker, it's not been any exception. So, believe it or not, something that actually helps me get through it all, in this way, if I could answer that question, "How do you do it." Is I am really clear that in any form of burnout I feel, I feel zero burnout about my work. My burnout is because of my life. It's not because of my work.

And so, I, over the last two and a half years of being a caregiver have consistently tweaked my business to be in a place where it doesn't burn me out, it actually becomes where I go feel good, to feel like I'm in my element, to smile more, to laugh more.

And so my number one goal, after, of course, making sure my kid is okay, is to treat, I mean, that matter of fact, is to make sure that my work still stays as unimpacted by the rest as it can. And so, how do I do it is how I'm really clear on what my business means to me. And it doesn't mean more vacations for me, it doesn't mean more homes, or more things to me. You still were when I first started. Now, it doesn't mean that, now it means I am someone more than a mother, and a wife, and a moderator, and a caregiver, and all of those things. When I come to work, that's my fucking church, if that makes sense, and that's my playground. And I won't let anything change that even though the way I run my business has changed a lot.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. That's really powerful. And that's so, you know, for most people, it probably sounds unbelievably unconventional and counterintuitive. Like, I know so many people who are like, "I'm working to work myself out of working." Right? Like, that's the goal, that's the endless capitalist grind, essentially. And that's just a lot of reality for a lot of people.

But the ability for you to adapt, and pivot, and to ensure that the things that mean the most to you are the things that get the most of your attention, I think, that is the epitome of value-centered entrepreneurialship and life in general. So, what you're saying is like, these are the two most important things and I'm going to do everything in my fucking power to ensure that they exist. Otherwise, everything else can fall off the map, and loses a lot of the attention and focus, I imagine. So, I just think that's really powerful, especially, for those of you who feel like you're the only one in it. You're one of the few who gets it.

Like, I know that Nam is not alone and I'm really appreciative of you sharing your story like this because I think so many people need to hear it because I think it's really easy to just offer hollow suggestions, or tips, or strategies on how to navigate something that you may not know how to navigate until it happens to you. And then you have to figure it out because you are not prepared for this and you've certainly had to adapt, and pivot, and change, not even season by season, but like, sometimes minute-by-minute or hour-by-hour.

NAM RINDANI: And I like that you brought up that there are people who can relate on that they're not alone because here's the thing, while not every listener on this podcast has a four-year-old who's neurodivergent, with type 1 diabetes, people like me exist. There are therapists listening to this who have chronically ill bodies. What they can do on their good health days is not the same as what they can do on days where their health has tanked. There are those who are secretly in abusive relationships and they have to go on camera and pretend that they're not living that reality. There are those who are struggling with money.

I mean, look at our conversation, racism alone, in this conversation, right? You're interviewing someone who's an immigrant, brown woman. I have other battles that come with that. Every single person who's likely listening has some difficult aspect of their lives. However, we live in an industry or in a culture that keeps saying, you know, build this business, even though you have all of that going on. And the message is of perseverance, but not perseverance that integrates difficulty with business, it's perseverance where push that difficulty aside, and then make your success story one where we'll look at all the bad stuff happened, and I still made six figures this month. That's not reality, that is part of that capitalist grind, and I am not even a little about it.

Like, for me succeeding is my life is a mess, I go through daily trauma, and I fucking love my work. Even if I don't get paid enough, or you know, I have a low-income month, which sometimes we do, being happy as shit with the work I do. And that's the message, find what makes you happy or you cannot survive the difficult stuff, it'll kill you. And I know that because I've had some dark days about it.

So, people who are listening, you don't have to have a business that is built despite your problems. You can actually build a business that respects the fact that you have problems and honors the fact that you cannot work the way other people do and it still works. And that's possible.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that message. And I hope a lot of you can absorb that because I think we live in such a comparison culture built upon a lot of insecurity and constant concern about what everyone else is doing. And we so often lose sight over what can I actually do? What am I actually capable of doing? And what do I actually enjoy doing? And I think that's really what's much more important than all the shiny objects chasing that a lot of us can do in entrepreneurialship.

And, you know, I know something that's not even close to the same situation is just the throat issue that I've been dealing with, and how that's impacted my own ability to show up in a way that I like to show up because I myself also associate work with play or enjoyment. And we've talked a lot about this.

And I have struggled so much to recapture that sense of wonder, or awe, or creativity, or fulfillment, enjoyment after throat surgery, and losing my voice. But I can tell as it's coming back, and it's getting stronger, and my health is recovering, I'm like, I'm starting to find that spark again but I think that if you lose sight over what you actually value, and what you actually want more of in your life, and what you want less of, you have to be able to figure out that accommodation piece for yourself too because it's really challenging.

You know, I'll get messages of like, "Oh, I have acid reflux, too. I know what it's like." I'm like, "We're not talking about the same fucking thing." I mean, we're just [CROSSTALK 00:19:51]-

NAM RINDANI: We do not.

PATRICK CASALE: …like my mom's one of those people, and she listens to this podcast, so I'm sure I'll get that message in a bit. But, you know, it's just like, at first, you know, like when you're talking to about your struggle with the world and that's why I think I've always been drawn to you and potentially vice versa. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you and I often talk about our struggles with the world.

And I do so because I recognize my place of privilege and my ability to say things that a lot of people cannot say. And I want to help validate and normalize some of the things that people may think that I'm the only one who is experiencing A, B, and C because that is so painful to feel like I am the only one who knows what it's like to deal with A, B, C, and D.

NAM RINDANI: That's it, that actually hit me really hard. I am the only one is, I think, a secret a lot of us carry but we're not… it doesn't sell, right? Talking about how difficult and painful your life is on social media typically doesn't sell. It doesn't lead to sold-out programs and full caseloads. I will very, very, very strongly say that that's a bullshit statement that has been perpetuated. It's not true. But it takes a lot to be able to… which is exactly what drew me to you, is to be able to go on social media and write posts about what's up, then how truly hard it is, without the message that we still must succeed. Sometimes the message is me too, my life is hard, you're not alone, I get it, and we will figure it out.

And I think a lot of people are actually in that position in the last three years. But again, with not a lot of permission talk about it, and we need to start talking about it. We're therapists, we're business owners, we're human, we have dark thoughts, we have PTSD dissociative days. I have, and this is, again, something I haven't disclosed before, but I've had some, like, in the last three or four years, I was the therapist who couldn't wait to see clients because everything else in my life made me wish I didn't exist. Like, I got there. I've gotten to those really, really dark moments. And I am certain a whole bunch of us have. Again, don't talk about struggle of that. Talk about struggle all the time, talk about it, it's okay.

PATRICK CASALE: Podcast title right there. I agree, 100%. And I think that the more we can normalize struggle, the less alone that we need to feel. And I think talking about struggle for me has always been so important because I've always felt like it normalizes the human experience. Like, I'm like, if I can talk about how I'm experiencing this, I certainly can't be the only one, even when you feel like you are. And I think that is so important to be able to try to name it. And I know that we all can't do that safely. But I do think it's really powerful and important.

One thing that kind of came up while you were talking is I just have to imagine and I think I know this because I consider you a close friend, we have a lot of conversation. But I imagine that when things suck, when you're talking about the struggle, when you're talking about the hard days, the hard times, you're going to lose some people in your life, you're going to find out who's really going to be there through the thick and thin because people just cannot sometimes handle the darkness of the human experience.

NAM RINDANI: Patrick, on social media most people cannot. Even the ones who will talk about how they're not about toxic positivity, even they cannot handle it. And here's what I have to say to that. There are some days where I am actually pretty eager for people to read some of my stories about the darkness and immediately unfriend me, stop sending me new referrals, get out of my Facebook group because at the end of it all, when we think about, like, I think about this optional, what is the world that we're going to leave to future generations? Is it going to be you're worried where the stories are all about the positive stuff, and you know, positive vibes only kind of shit, or are we going to leave stories about shit gets hard, life can be full of struggles that you didn't sign up for. And it's not about mindset, diabetes is not about your mindset. It's just reality.

You want to make sure that the people who are around you are those who get that and not people who just sort of want to be there, or want to stay connected when you're talking about all of the positive stuff because we don't… Here's the thing, Patrick, I don't think we owe each other anything past a certain point. My social media is not meant to make everyone feel good about their lives. My social media is meant to show that I am human, with the hope that everyone else can do that as well, based on safety measures. I mean, I'm a brown woman, there's stuff that I still don't talk about, even on social media because really bad things can happen.

But finding your people is everything. And one of the harder ways to find your people is to talk about the hard stuff and then let the ones who leave close the door behind them.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's a really good barometer, in terms of, you know, who's a real connection and who is not. And I think for a lot of you who are listening, you know, we get so caught up in social media creation, and insecurity, and impostor syndrome, and self-doubt, and I talk about the shit all the time, but it's a different perspective of like, I think that you're so often just not seeing the behind the scenes for people, if you're really imagining that that's what the world is like. And you're questioning, like, how come I'm not creating more? Or doing more? Or as successful? Or whatever.

And it's like, you really don't fucking know what that person is actually putting up with, they're struggling with, they're experiencing if they're not talking about it. And I think, you know, I'm not going to diverge too much into the entrepreneurial conversation right now because I want to stay where we're at. But I do think we attract and repel. And I think that the more you can be real, and honest, and authentic, and vulnerable, and raw, the more you are going to attract people who appreciate that. And you are going to certainly repel people who are like, "No, I don't want to hear this. Like, I don't have to, I can't absorb it, I can't listen to it." Whatever.

And that's okay. And I think that also means, in a lot of ways you're kind of leading through your life really closely connected to your values because I can't tolerate the artificiality, and the disingenuous, like, fake, small talk type of mentality lifestyle. Like, that's my own shit. It's probably my autistic parts of myself.

But honestly, I think, again, circling back to why you and I have become good friends over the last three years is probably because a lot of that, and it's just really that, you know, you're going to draw people to you who care about how you're doing. And when we're talking about the struggle, you're going to lose a lot of people who you thought were your friends.

NAM RINDANI: Yes, and it sucks when that happens. But my goodness, in the long run, the community I now have because I have been very open about almost everything I could be open about in a really hard season of my life are, there's no way I could have met, you included, like there's no way I could have met any of you at some random party where we were talking about politics or the weather, and, you know, making general sort of small talk. So, no regrets on that one at all. Let the people leave. It's a good thing.

PATRICK CASALE: I hope you can all hear that too because for those of you who are listening to this because you're like, "Hey, I really need entrepreneurial support." Let the people leave. Like, that's okay. That's another part of livelihood too. And I think that it just ensures that you stay consistent with who you are, and that, for me makes business ownership more enjoyable when I can feel like things are aligned because when I feel like I'm forcing things or things are like, I'm just doing them because I'm good at them or what's expected of me, that's not where the real stuff comes from. And that's not where, like, the really engaging posts and content comes from either. I have to be in it, I have to be struggling, and I have to be able to then put it out to the world because that kind of honestly creates motivation, and creativity for me, and allows me to think a little bit differently.

NAM RINDANI: Yes, and it speaks to the other side of, I think, like people leave is who do you want in? Patrick, there are so many people I now speak to in different capacities because I'm open about struggle and I'm certain you come across these people too because you talk about impostor syndrome so much, there are so many who are walking around saying, "I have impostor syndrome." But what they're not looking at is, is it really impostor syndrome or are you trying to build business and succeed without looking at what the season of your life is?

If you live in constant pain, that's not, I mean, how can you not question yourselves? It's really hard. Life is hard. And so, when I think about what I want in my life, when I think about listeners who, you know, we're saying, let people leave, also asking who do you want around you? People who are going to get that your current season of life, it has certain demands on you that you're going to show up or be absent in very specific ways. And they're going to stay no matter what. So, this is a way to be discerning about who you want in your life as well. People who get it

PATRICK CASALE: It also goes back to just quality over quantity in all areas, like not just personally in relationships. But you know, we get so caught up in quantity of things. Like, more followers, more subscribers, more downloads, more this. And it's more about, like, what's the quality of the relationships that you have around you, and the way that you're kind of moving through what you're experiencing, and the business that you're creating because I think that just is what's long-lasting and that's what creates longevity. And it's much more about that than vanity numbers or vanity in general. 

NAM RINDANI: In fact, I was going to make a post about this today about what if we were to start to redefine success as not being about more? More clients, more businesses, more money, but about enough. Enough is okay, enough doesn't mean scarcity, enough doesn't mean lack of success, enough means contentment, enough means being able to appreciate where you are and living really, really joyfully.

So, I think you're right. The whole more subscribers, more followers, more people, like I call it a really large, really large [INDISCERNIBLE 00:33:08]. And when people leave, it impacts your numbers, and it doesn't really matter because enough is okay. Like, you can succeed to just be enough and have enough. And that's not a negative thing at all.

PATRICK CASALE: Agreed, 100%. Do you feel contentment and enoughness, that's not the word that I want to use, but you know what I'm saying, now, in this current stage of your business and career because it sounds like you do based on the texts that you've been sending me.

NAM RINDANI: I send you like 700 texts, so which text are you talking about?

PATRICK CASALE: It sounds like business for you right now, and I think this is just circling back to what you mentioned before, it feels really, really enjoyable for you, and that you are truly loving this season of life in general and what it looks like.

NAM RINDANI: Love doesn't even begin, it's the air out of me, it doesn't even begin to describe it. Now, my business is weirdly structured, I'll say that. I work in hours where I know blood sugars are going to be stable, for example, right? Where I do all of his insulin shots. And so, I cannot see clients at that time or whatever it is. And so, I've structured my business to fully depend on someone else's way of functioning, which, again, goes against a lot of the norms of how business is supposed to be valued.

But once I got to a place where structurally it works, I found myself again, and the person that I am, and I think a lot of the people who live difficult lives and are entrepreneurs can rely on is who you actually are.

And so, now my business, it has a direct connection of what I care about, who I care about, and what I can do without it feeling like work. So, love, it doesn't do justice to how I feel. It's my businesses are a family member, they're living/breathing things, and I look after them and they look after me.

PATRICK CASALE: It's amazing.

NAM RINDANI: [CROSSTALK 00:35:42].

PATRICK CASALE: It is, but it has been blood, sweat, and tears going into that to make it exactly what you need it to be. And-

NAM RINDANI: Absolutely, literally.

PATRICK CASALE: Literally.

NAM RINDANI: Like, truly, grossly. Yes, you know, this is something I actually struggle with that I'm working on. I don't always recognize that all of this has not just happened. Before type 1, I was still working my ass off to become someone who can talk about struggles openly and have the impact that it does. So, yes, I have contributed to creating businesses that bring me joy. And also, they do well. Like, well, by my standards, maybe not by a lot of other people's standards, but I have put in work.

But then it, again, goes to business being like a family member to me. If the dear love of my life, Jamie's like having a bad day [INDISCERNIBLE 00:36:47] be like, "Oh, screw you. I'm not going to be around you." It's actually similar with business. If my businesses, and they did tank. I went from 35 clients to 11 when Evan was diagnosed. When our businesses are at low points, don't bail on them, ask them what they need. Take care of them. Business can support you, and you can support your business. So, that's where a lot of the texts you get from me about how happy I am with my work, that's where it comes from. It's like talking about someone I love.

PATRICK CASALE: If business was a TV show character for you, who would it be?

NAM RINDANI: Just like the ultimate test of a friendship because if you don't know the answer to this, I don't know what the fuck we've been doing for two years. Hands down, Tyrion Lannister.

PATRICK CASALE: Why? I know the answer to this, but I want you to expand [INDISCERNIBLE 00:37:44] audience.

NAM RINDANI: Tyrion, my experience of Tyrion and Game of Thrones was of someone who was deeply misunderstood. Absolutely amazing, but a misfit, perfectly judged, got the short end of the stick all the time. But truly on the inside is someone, like to me, Tyrion, needed to win on the Game of Thrones. Like, I'm still upset about that.

Because for those of us who are symbolic imps in our life, those of us who've been discarded, judged, mistreated, who have been in pain and have done shameful things out of pain, all of the messiness of being human, for those of us who know that we need our day in court, like Tyrion did on the day of his trial, one of my favorite scenes, but we also know humanity, and compassion, and love, and what's important in a way that I don't think anyone else does. Not even the Daenerys since we're talking about Game of Thrones of the world because, you know, I have maybe forgot that. How does she walk through fire and then her hair is intact when she's out. What's that about?

Tyrion is a mess. He has scars. He's judged for the way he looks. Like, there's so much darkness in that character. And there's so much, so much beauty in it that behind my computer, you've seen it, I have a figurine of Tyrion because Tyrion is not only how I am about my business, Tyrion is my ideal client, in all of my businesses, whether I'm supporting therapists in groups, or I'm working with men in my therapy business, the imps of the world are the one true king for me, truly.

PATRICK CASALE: Damn. I was going to say before you just mentioned that, that descriptor and that vision of like, this is who this is, this is how they've experienced life, this is how society looks at them is interwoven throughout everything that you do. And I think that's really beautiful because, again, it's another way of seeing those people who feel unseen, disconnected, estranged, different than, or just not a part of, and I think that makes a big difference in terms of what we're talking about right now, is really just that from your own perspective. And I think that's really a wonderful thing to offer the world and the helping community and everything that you do. So, I just want to really, again, just speak very favorably of everything that you put out into the world. I am a huge, huge fan.

NAM RINDANI: Thank you. What's important here, Patrick, about everything I do, that you are describing so graciously, and so generously is, there's a fundamental question that I constantly ask myself, and I wish more business owners ask themselves that, and more therapist did, which is, not what you want, but what hurts? What sucks about your life? About what you've been through? What hurts? And then developing businesses, or clientele, or whatever you're into, at that time, developing something that honors that and can also be your response to that.

The reason why I… so I've been in private practice since a long time. I have been in the field for 18 years, most of that has been private practice. One of the reasons why I've not had a single day of not being in private practice is because my work has not only been an extension of me understanding what hurts in other people, but knowing what hurts for me, and my business being about that, about that value system, but also being a response to the hurt in the world. Or removing, like, there's something that worries me, we're moving into a world where we're not wanting to look at what's broken, we're not wanting to look at what really sucks. And if we don't do that, then we keep creating businesses and we keep creating messages that lead to this really toxic form of pretend.

So, I say, everyone listening, like, ask yourself, what hurts, and don't be afraid by it. You will be able to build a life that takes care of that. And that's how you find happiness, I think. That's how I found happiness, despite the daily trauma of my life.

PATRICK CASALE: I wasn't planning on ending the episode yet. But I think that's the perfect way to do so because that is so invaluable and so powerful. And to find out what hurts, that is really, really powerful because I think that we are often creating for the wrong reasons. And then, really dissatisfied with the results, or the experience or, you know, we just don't feel connected to the creation. And, for me, creation has to be connected to something. And that's the most powerful part for me is that it feels like an it's an extension of experience or sense of life in general.

And I think that's why retreats were important for me because I struggled so much with connection, that it's a natural form of connection for me, and for the people that I host. And I think that we're often trying to find the things that we need as well, and then creating around them. And I really do think that is so, so valuable, Nam. So, thank you for sharing that.

NAM RINDANI: Absolutely. Successes hidden in the struggles. Happiness is hidden in what hurts. I truly believe that. And you are another example of that. I know that personally. So, thank you for having me. This is a conversation I've never had before. Thank you for that.

PATRICK CASALE: Thank you for coming on and for sharing all of this. This has been really an honor. And I'm glad that we were able to do this. And it's honestly perfect timing everyone listening because now my Shih Tzu is up and crying at me. And I don't know what he wants, but he wants something.

But Nam, if you want to share anything that you're working on, or creating, or offering, or doing please share with the audience and we'll have that in the show notes for everybody as well.

NAM RINDANI: Sure, I'm a seasonal creator. So, currently, I have two businesses. I have a virtual therapy practice called Ebonaire Counseling Services. My entire therapy practice is catered towards working with men and people in their lives who don't understand them. That's one business. My second business is Ebonessence Coaching and Consulting, which is support for therapists. And right now it's primarily through running support groups for therapists. And you can go to ebonessence.com and find a whole bunch of different groups that I run. But those are my two businesses.

PATRICK CASALE: I've personally taken one of Nams groups when you were doing the divergent group and that was really, really helpful for me and really powerful. And I cannot say enough about the facilitator that you are in helping people feel safe, and heard, and connected. And I wish I got to actually experience more of it, was just a wonky time in my life [CROSSTALK 00:46:03]. But it was it was really, really wonderful. And I also love how much you just kind of hated putting on that little like, "If you want to find more about me, please come to…"

NAM RINDANI: Oh, my God. Don't call me out on my shit. Like, physically am just… I don't like that part.

PATRICK CASALE: I know, I know.

NAM RINDANI: Just Google Nam, you'll find a whole bunch of bullshit. Nobody else is called Nam. It's barely a name. It's a funny sound. You'll see what I'm doing.

PATRICK CASALE: For those of you who want to find more bullshit by Nam Rindani just Google Nam. All that information will be in the show notes for those of you who want to find out more information about what season of life Nam's in and what she's currently creating because it's going to change and it's going to be amazing. And it's going to be really catered towards whatever is hurting in that moment, or what's needed in that moment. And I think that's really powerful.

So, for all of you listening to the All Things Private Practice Podcast, new episodes are out every single Sunday on all major platforms. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week.