Episode 91: Create Something New: Organic Growth & Meaningful Connections [featuring Anna O'Brien]

Show Notes

It's often the case that therapists who are stepping into entrepreneurship feel overwhelmed and discouraged by the slow growth of their private practices or other ventures.

They often struggle with promotion, and may even fall into the trap of gimmicky marketing and cookie-cutter branding and promises that ultimately don't connect with anyone.

Authenticity is the best way to find the people who will support you and help you grow, but it also means having to face rejection and criticism when introducing your new business or ideas to the world.

If you are a mental health professional who is struggling with impostor syndrome and holding back on launching your business or next entrepreneurial venture, then this episode is for you.

In this episode, I talk with Anna O'Brien, LPC, art therapist, private practice owner, and co-founder of Theravera, which runs Be Well Private Practice Communities and The Consult List.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Learn what it takes to create a value-centered business as an entrepreneur, with organic growth through selective partnerships and word-of-mouth.
2. Understand how consistency is key to entrepreneurial success, especially when struggling with self-doubt, perfectionism, and insecurity.
3. See how authenticity and passion attract others, as well as why it's important to provide valuable and relatable content and services to be a successful entrepreneur.

Building authentic relationships and trust is crucial for the success of a private practice, podcast, coaching program, or any other venture you may pursue. Remember to practice patience, stay true to your values, and consistently produce valuable content to achieve organic growth.

More about Anna:

Anna O'Brien is a Board Certified Art Therapist and Licensed Professional Counselor in the Philadelphia region. Along with her private practice, she is the co-founder of Theravera, which runs Be Well Private Practice Communities (holdspacewithus.com) and The Consult List (theconsultlist.com). Her professional passions surround creativity, human connection, and finding unique and ethical solutions in the therapy field.

Join The Consult List.

Consult List is a powerful platform that streamlines the therapist-client connection process, revolutionizing the way mental health support is accessed. Unlike traditional alternatives such as manual searches, online directories, and impersonal matching systems, Consult List offers unique features that empower both therapists and individuals seeking support. With customizable consultation requests, managed lists of specialists, and expanded professional networks, therapists have greater control and access to high-quality referrals. Individuals benefit from a seamless experience, receiving tailored offers from therapists who have personally added themselves to their lists. By combining advanced technology and human-driven connections, Consult List ensures efficient, personalized, and meaningful matches that enhance the mental health journey. Sign up for free at consultlist.com, and consider joining at a higher membership tier if you want to support this therapist-led mission.

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A Thanks to Our Sponsor: The Receptionist for iPad!

The Receptionist for iPad:

I would also like to thank The Receptionist for iPad for sponsoring this episode.

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey everyone, you are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale. I'm joined today by a friend and colleague, Anna O'Brien, who is a LPC and art therapist in the Philadelphia area and owns private practices, parts of private practice communities. But most importantly, we're going to talk about a creation of hers called The Consult List, and the importance of connection, using technology to our advantage in the mental health community space without impacting care with ensuring that we have more accessibility that people feel less alone and isolated. So, I really appreciate you making the time and coming on here to share some of your story. 

ANNA O'BRIEN: Oh, thanks, Patrick. It's great to be here. 

PATRICK CASALE: So, tell us about what you're doing because the whole reason I wanted to have you on is because you've created this concept. I met you back at a retreat that I hosted last year, when I thought your name was Erin O'Brien, for some reason, and had your name tag very misspelled which [INDISCERNIBLE 00:01:03].

ANNA O'BRIEN: You know there is an Erin O'Brien in the Philly area and she's a therapist, and it begins with a vowel. So, it got really close.

PATRICK CASALE: I tried my best, you know? It was an overwhelming event at first, so I appreciate the grace there. So, tell us about The Consult List and what I mean, especially, is the vision and the why because I think that's really the important piece here with what you're working to create and working so hard to give to the therapist community at large. So, yeah, share a little bit about what it is and why it came to be. 

ANNA O'BRIEN: Right, oh thanks for asking. So, yeah, probably, similar to a lot of people on this podcast have gone through that journey of, and the struggle of kind of leaving community mental health, maybe joining a group practice, and then, deciding do I want to go into private practice, and the fear of how am I going to fill up? How am I going to market myself, marketing myself? Well, I love talking one-on-one with people. Like, the idea of an internet presence and really, like was terrifying to me.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

ANNA O'BRIEN: I feel like I'm an older millennial. And so, you know, sometimes I'm a little bit behind the times, which is funny that I started a tech company. But anyways, so what I was thinking is like, "Oh, how am I going to get these referrals." And I entered private practice at the very beginning of the pandemic and was lucky to fill up quickly, partly because I was able to bring a lot of clients from the group practice on, and I took some insurance. So, if you're struggling, I had some things in my corner. 

But what I quickly swayed into was the problem of having like people calling and being full or not being a good fit. And then, stressing about like the no callback guilt, like, "Oh my gosh, I've got to call that person back." But then, you know how sometimes when you're feeling not great about something, or you kind of tend to procrastinate it? So, like, you know, I'd be like, "Oh, I need to call that person back but who am I even going to send them to?" 

And I noticed that people were saying a lot of therapists weren't calling back. And I think it's because probably a lot of us were feeling that feeling of like, well, where do I even send them? I can give them the three people I like to refer to but I know from talking to those people regularly that they're also full. And saying check your insurance company is a nightmare. You know, saying like scour Psychology Today, you know, I've had situations where I was trying to get some support for a specific issue that I didn't specialize in. And if you go to Psychology Today, sometimes people are claiming that they do things that they don't really specialize in. So, you know, you really want to give someone a good referral, but then you're weighing it with like, "But how much extra time do I have?" 

So, I was just thinking there's got to be a better way. And I thought about, I think with my art background I'm always trying to be creative and solve problems. I thought about a solution and I luckily have a business partner who is really good at the tech side of how can we create a system where like, I can say, hey, I can't see this person in a HIPAA-compliant way, how can I share a little bit of information about what they're looking for, and send it out either my preferred list of contacts that I know and trust or other therapists in the area, and if they're available they can quickly like click a button to say like raise a hand to offer consultation, and that person that's on the phone, I've given a link that is a unique link that they can check and see who responded so they have a qualified list of providers that meet their financial need, the specialty, the time of day they need to be seen, and perhaps the area, if that's in person, and they know that these people like want to talk to them, and then, they get to be empowered to make the choice. 

And so, we're really excited to get it going and it's kind of a grassroots effort because our whole thing is like we wanted to be therapists funded, and therapist founded, and you know, really keep in line with clinical judgment, not valuing money over clinical care, good care.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. And I love the concept because you're right. Like, not just because of the pandemic itself, which certainly increased the frequency in need for mental health care, which we saw an explosion of people entering the private practice realm and space, which is great. But it really does become that extra administrative tasks that a lot of therapists really struggle to do, whether it's for a variety of reasons, I feel bad, because I don't have anywhere to send them, I don't have time to do it, I just don't feel like I have my executive functioning is able to be able to go down this list of tasks that I need to do every week and still see my clients and do my notes. But it's a major issue, regardless of the reasoning behind it. And it's just another barrier to care. 

And what I've always found to be true, is a lot of therapists, and I don't want to use blanket statements in this podcast, but a lot of therapists really struggle to feel like they're offering some sort of rejection. So, that means calling a client back and saying I don't have room or I don't see client A, B, and C, or I don't feel comfortable with this issue or area. And all I found that clients really want is a landing spot. Like, they're way less concerned about working with you and much more concerned about finding someone to work with. And if we are able to offer solutions to that problem of making sure that everyone finds the right landing spot, everyone is able to get seen for mental health care as accommodating as we can be, I think that's a major step in the right direction. 

So, what you're trying to create here is really cool. And I know that there's a lot of labor of love, right? Because you said it's grassroots, you want it to have integrity, align with your values. That sometimes means building slower, because you may say no to certain collaboration efforts, or sponsorship efforts, or investment efforts. 

So, tell me a little bit about the behind-the-scenes of creating something like this because you clearly believe in it, right? And that's obvious. But then when it's like, "This is a lot of energy to get this going." What's that like?

ANNA O'BRIEN: Well, you know, it's interesting, that's a really good point. And yeah, it has been slow growing. So, we've been at this for about a year and a half. We like kind of did our beta launch in October. We have about 1200 members nationwide and more on the Mid-Atlantic area, like the Philadelphia area, it's working kind of slowly, and we've got pilot programs in hospital systems, that's another thing we want to engage with, like primary care doctors, hospital systems, school counselors, so that they can enter referrals only. But it is slow, right? Because we, one, like, we don't have this huge budget. And basically, our advertising has been word of mouth, and podcasts, and things like that. 

But it's like I believe in this so much. And I want to see it succeed so much that I would rather stay true to my values and like really struggle financially a little bit with it than do a quick fix, get some money or you know, some sort of partnership that doesn't feel aligned with the value. And then, all this time… and I do feel like this is like, I know that I have other things inside me, but this is definitely like my leap in life of trying something big. And I believe in this. And I don't want my life to be defined by like, "I tried this thing, and it didn't work, and then I just chased the money." I really wanted it to be like, Okay, this is it." You know? 

And I really don't want it to fail. I'm really passionate about it. That being said, there are plenty of failures along the way with anything that's even successful. And I think we all have to get used to that. But if it does, for some reason, not end up like how I wanted, I know that the connections I've made, and everything along the path is going to lead to something very positive in my life and hopefully, in the lives of others. So, that keeps me going too, is just like, you know, if I just focus on my values with this, it's going to work out. I don't know how it's going to work out, I don't know what that's going to look like. But it's going to work out in a way that I feel good about.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think it takes so much time to get something off the ground when you have this vision and you're also trying to sell people on not just the vision, but also implementing how to use said piece of technology or platform. And, you know, I talk about this a lot. But if you have a value-centered business as an entrepreneur, it does feel a lot more satisfying. Like, of course, we want to see the results, right? Like, we definitely want those things or we wouldn't be doing these things, for a lot of reasons. 

But even with my Facebook group, my podcast, we have people like throw money at it because "Oh, you have a large following, we'd love to get in front of your audience." And I am so selective and I think it means that my growth for my Facebook group, and podcast numbers are much more organic because it's not going to be a situation where we're going to take money from X investor or platform that I don't believe in, because I think my reputation is their reputation and vice versa. And if I refer you to a business, or a platform that is just not well run, or not managed well, our values don't align, or they screw you over, it's similarly to saying like, "Here's a contractor I like." And then they show up, take your money, and never come back. That's a reflection on me. 

And I think it's a lot harder in the short term when you have to understand, like, organic growth takes time, word of mouth takes time, just like building any business, private practices included. In comparison to like, hey, so and so is going to give me X amount and give me 50,000 followers, and like, does that feel in alignment with the values that our businesses are trying to uphold and bring to the world? So, I commend you for wanting it to be values-driven. 

Now, you were mentioning like, before we started recording the practice piece because practicing these things on a daily basis, whether it means failure, whether it means being uncomfortable, being vulnerable, being open to criticism, growing outside of your comfort zone in general, this stuff is challenging, and it creates a lot of self-doubt, impostor syndrome, perfectionism, and insecurity. Tell me a little bit about what you were thinking when we kind of mentioned, like, practicing, and really making sure that this stays consistent because I think consistency is also key.

ANNA O'BRIEN: Right, yeah. You know, we just had a marketing workshop with Aisha Shabazz who does some work with marketing in the Philly area and I'm sure nationally, too. And she used the expression, practice makes progress. And that really stuck with me because that's true, right? The more that you do something, the more that you kind of are able to stomach the results, right. So, you know, our nervous systems, and just the message of like, when we have a fear that like, this is life-threatening, our brains can't differentiate that. 

And so, it's normal to feel like the fear of being outcast, right? As human beings, we need each other to survive, so when you are like, if I do this, you know, I mean, that like fear fantasy is like, people are going to reject me, they're brain things like, "Well, I'm going to be left alone to die." Right? 

And when you do it, and you recognize, like, "Okay, like, I'm still here." You know? And again, like, when your values-driven and you believe in what you're doing, then it's okay if someone disagrees with you, or someone doesn't see your vision. 

You know, I mean, of course, we'd all love everyone to cheer us on, all the way, but like, that's not in everyone's interest, and people are going to feel like it's competition or just not really get it. And that's okay, right? And I think it doesn't feel okay ahead of time. But I think once you get into it, and you keep practicing doing that, it's just easier to get up and do it again, you know? Because if I, you know, reach out to four people about making connections, and I get lukewarm, or cold answers for three of them, but I get that one person who's like, "Yes, I see you and I see what you're doing." That gives me enough fuel to keep going. And I think you just kind of have to get used to that. It's kind of a numbers game.

And, you know, speaking of ADHD, Patrick, I have raging ADHD, so I'm going to get ready to enter into a different tangent of like something that I wanted to bring up. But like, when you're doing something new, also, what you need to kind of, or what I've noticed, and what I've needed to do is that like, if you think of, you know, I don't mean to get grad school on this, but like with Piaget, and the idea of how humans learn, like when you introduce a new concept to someone, they look at it as like, "What can I like assimilate this to like? What do I know that's like this?"

So, when you're coming out with a new book, or a new series, like people are going to be like, "Oh, so it's kind of like that." Right? And it's really challenging at times, like people will, you know, or you'll feel like no one wants to buy a product because they think it's like something else. But if you know that you're out there to offer something different, what you need to do is just keep doing it so that people can show up and keep talking about it so that you can get past that stage of assimilation and you can help people, like, accommodate this new understanding of what this thing is and create a separate box in their brain for it. 

But that takes time. And we can't expect that people are going to learn that immediately. And I think that's been a big thing for me, too. It's like my patience with other people and my eagerness to get the message across and knowing that like, I need to continually show up, and explain this because I'd be the same way if I was hearing that, you know? The way human brains work is like we try to put in a box what we're already familiar with.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I think that's a great point. And I think that for any of you who are listening and are creating something, it can be anything, there is that moment where you realize like, you're going to be much more excited about your creation than most of your audience is going to be unless you already have a massive audience who is just like chomping at the bit for everything that you're putting out there. 

So, I know when I started private practice coaching, a couple of years ago, I knew I could do it. Like, I knew I could help people get their practices up and running, do it differently, really tap into the authentic piece of the ownership side and nobody knew who I was. So, I was much more eager in these conversations with people who would show a little bit of interest, and you get a lot of rejection because you need the know, like, and trust factor when you're trying to sell anything. And it just started to take more patience. But in reality, what was happening is that the quality of the product, or the coaching program, or whatever was trickling out and trickling down and rippling. And then all of a sudden, so and so tells their friend, "Hey, have you seen this? Hey, have you tried this? Hey, have you heard of this person? Have you checked this resource out yet?" And that starts to spread. 

And I think that as someone, inpatient person who has ADHD often runs off with the creative side and is like, "Oh, my God, this is so great. I want everyone to know how great it is." It's almost like exhibiting some restraint and patience in a way of like taking a step back, taking a breath. Okay, let's break down the fact that you have 1200 users right now, or people who are using your platform, and it's growing. Like, we're using these hospital systems, we're starting to create this ripple effect, right? Because then more and more people tell each other, then more and more people sign up. And I think those are the results that really feel good. And that's like the word-of-mouth referral, when you're in private practice, when a client goes out and says, "My therapist helped me with A, B, and C, you should go see them." That's a great referral. A family friend, or a friend of yours, or a colleague is referring to you, that's a great referral. Like, that's the organic stuff that you've worked really fucking hard to obtain. But it takes a little bit longer because the quality is there over the quantity. And I think that's something that is really challenging when people are trying to launch their big, beautiful, creative, energized ideas with the world because it's like, "Why doesn't everyone see how amazing this is because look at how amazing it is?"

ANNA O'BRIEN: Right? Yeah and as therapists and as consumers of therapy, people are selective, and they value that human connection, that relationship, and like the trust factor. So, I feel like, even if we had like, decided to go the route of getting, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars thrown into Facebook ads, it wouldn't matter, right? Because we're talking about something very sensitive to people's hearts, you know? That human connection and that building rapport. And that's why ultimately, I don't think AI is going to take over therapy, and I don't think that these companies that are valuing profit over people are going to work because this is not like buying, you know, a new pair of shoes, that look cool, right? This is about a lot more. 

And so, your business and my business, and for people seeking therapy, those referrals from word of mouth of like, "Hey, you know what? We've made this connection, and we have trust, and I'm liking something that I want to share with you. Like, I see a therapist that I like, or I'm on a platform that I like." That's what really cultivates that, and it's so much more valuable. But because it's valuable, it takes longer, right? It's not like just throw some ad money out there. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the catch-22, is like it is valuable, and it can be so so amazing and have such an impact on so many people. So, a lot of our instinct is like, let me scream this from the rooftops all the time. And it really does mean that like intentionality behind relationship building is so crucial, and how we get the word out about our programs, and our ventures because podcasts, coaching programs, retreats, like the audience and the know like and trust factor has to be there and you either have to develop it on your own or you do have to use the leverage of somebody else's audience who does believe in what you're doing. And I think both can exist. And you can create your own audience while simultaneously leveraging other audiences who already trust who's putting the information out there. And I think both are really important pieces for this because that's the best way, in my opinion, to really start to make a lot of this stuff come full circle. 

And you know, you can get caught up in the quantity too, like I can get caught up in like, how many downloads did this episode get in? And in reality, like I don't really fucking care anymore because I know that the feedback is always really positive, so as long as we continue to deliver good, valuable content, and good interviews, and great episodes the episode downloads, whether it be a month or a year are going to continue to grow. And that means every time I check it, even if I obsessively check it, that like maybe week one X amount is downloaded. But if I check it in a year, the acknowledgment that every episode is continuing to increase in downloads says that that organic reach is trickling out. And again, it's just a patience thing. 

For those of you who are creating, I know how hard that can be because like, you work so hard on this stuff and there's so much of yourself wrapped up into these creative processes that there's a lot of vulnerability, and there's a lot of sense of self, and if things don't go the way we want them to right away or in general, it hurts. Like, we're human, it makes sense. 

But do not let that prevent you from trying again, or pushing forward, or continuing to practice because it is a one foot in front of the other process a lot of the time.

ANNA O'BRIEN: Absolutely, yeah, yeah. It's a great point. And you know, it made me think too, like, a lot of factors play into why people attach to certain things and don't to others. And I think that the quantity piece that you're talking to is like, you could have a podcast title that says something like, you know, Listen to This Podcast for Your Chance to Win a Million Dollars. And it could just have, like, the most vapid, I know that's not your style, but like, if one of the most vapid content ever, right? And it really not moves the needle in terms of like people's lives and therefore, like, what you're doing there, it's a ripple effects of that, like, you were then helping the end client, and then, you're helping those clients like help their family and friends. And you know, it really is like the butterfly effect, right? 

So, we can get like huge download numbers or, you know, and then, really, like deliver something that's not as valuable as something that maybe doesn't have as catchy of a title or isn't as easy to digest, and has a smaller amount of downloads, but like a higher percentage of people who listen to that, like walked away with like a real moment of clarity that they brought with them into their lives and had a bigger ripple. 

So, there's so many different ways that value and can be, you know, signed, and it's easy to forget that, you know, when we're in the middle of it, and when we're in that fear space. But yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. And I think that those types of listens, or follows, or subscribes are the ones who come back and listen again to another episode or share with a friend. If you're using these strategies for marketing purposes that are just like, let's get as many people in the door as possible, the odds of people, like becoming recurring listeners, or followers, or subscribers, or sharing your stuff goes down drastically. But the short term, the dopamine hit that comes with quantity really does impact a lot of people and it skews perception in terms of value. So, I really do challenge everyone that's listening, if you're creating anything, to really try hard to just acknowledge the work and effort that you've put in, acknowledge how exciting and creative that feels for you and the community, and give yourself time, and space, and patience. And I know that can be very, very challenging. 

And, you know, if I was to look back at my career leaving community mental health in 2017, I don't think I ever thought that I would ever utter the words that I had a sponsored podcast or that I was hosting a retreat in a medieval Italian village that I rented the entire village for. Like, those are not things that were possibilities six years ago. And it has been a lot of painstaking self-doubt, and insecurity, and impostor syndrome along the way. But it's also been a lot of, like you said, practice and progress going hand in hand, and continuing to show up and having consistency, and also, having some bumps along the way because that's totally normal. 

And for those of you who are trying things that are… they're just not feeling like they're working or it's feeling like it's taking a lot to get off the ground, that's the message here is just continuing to try because life is so short. I don't want to reexamine or look back and say like, I never went for it, I at least tried to get my idea off the ground. I think that feels so much more valuable, and validating, and rewarding. And of course, we want them to be successful, but like the effort has to be there and I think it circles back to the why. 

ANNA O'BRIEN: Yeah, you know, so true. And one thing I also wanted to point out as you were talking, I was thinking about when you're doing things that you're passionate about, and are authentic, and it's your authentic voice, that's what makes it, that's the magic sauce, right? Like, and it's going to take people a while, right? Like, if I hear retreat, and I went on one of your retreats, it was not at all what I was thinking. You know, sometimes you hear retreats and you're not sure, like maybe you think of your 1980s definition of what a retreat would be, you know? So, it's like creating something and being like, focused on that, like, you know, knowing your ego is going to get in the way, your fear is going to get in the way, everything, you know, that fear of abandonment, you know, being outcast by your tribe is going to get in the way. But what is ultimately important is that you're like, I know that what I'm doing at the end of the day, like, you know, I'm into this and other people will be too. It's just, you know…

There's this woman named Megan Cornish who is awesome. She's got a great LinkedIn profile. She does a lot of marketing for therapy companies. And she just posted something I like, want to read it, because she's talking about how people are calling her an influencer. And she said, "In my opinion… She's talking about, like, "I don't feel like an influencer, I just eat like the sandwich that my kids threw down on the ground, then I was excited because it meant I didn't have to make lunch that day, you know?

And she was saying, like, "In my opinion, it's not always about leading a life worth emulating, it's about leading a life worth living authentically, courageously, and whole heartedly, that's what matters." And I think that when you have a business that aligns with that, like, it makes your life worth living, you know, it brings real value to the people around you. And that means, though, that you are not going to capture 100% of the market share or whatever it is. Like, you are going to be speaking to people, we need that connection, we need to be able to relate in that way.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. I think that's wonderful ending point for this conversation because that's just really powerful. So, I hope that everyone's able to soak this in, and really start to think about this for themselves in terms of wherever you're at in the creative process and your entrepreneurial journey, and I think that's what makes good entrepreneurs, too, is the ability to pivot, adapt, shift, grow, fail, work through some of the emotional side of it. And that's really the goal of this podcast, is to help all of you do that, regardless of whether you're starting a private practice, or you're not even a mental health entrepreneur at all. But I think all of these things go hand in hand. 

So, Anna, please tell the audience where they can find what you've created. I almost called you Erin, and I was [CROSSTALK 00:27:23]-

ANNA O'BRIEN: So, it's Consult List. Like, we're The Consult List, but we're think about shortening it to just consultlist.com. And you can learn more about us. Also, since we're so word of mouth, if you're interested in helping spread the word and it's like, you know, creating kind of your preferred referral list, and sending it to people in your community, that's really what gets this up and going, right? Because if there's like two people in your city using it, it's not of much value. So, if you want to reach out to us, we'll be happy to supply you with some materials to get the word out, and we're really excited and we hope that it helps both therapists, and growing therapists, and also helps the healthcare systems. And you know, we're also working with some community mental health agencies as well to help guide the uninsured or underinsured. So, we just want to collaborate with anyone who kind of believes in our vision and has their vision in their career dovetails, so please reach out. We're always open to dialogue.

PATRICK CASALE: I love it and all of the information will be in the show notes for easy access so that you can find Consult List. Check it out, become a part of it, share it with your communities, and use it as a resource to help more people because it just creates more accessibility to mental health care.

To everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice Podcast, new episodes are up every single week on all major podcast platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway, we'll see you next week.