All Things Private Practice Podcast for Therapists

Episode 97: Lead With Curiosity to Effect Change [featuring Michael Ashford]

Show Notes

How is change truly affected and sustained? This may feel like a big, existential question, but one that is certainly worthy of asking.

During this episode, I talk with Michael Ashford, director of marketing at The Receptionist for iPad.

People need the autonomy to make decisions when change is being illicit-ed, and "facts don't solve fights."

I discuss my former gambling addiction, how hellacious it was, and how I was able to pull myself out of it.

We talk about how you can go from feeling extremely confident to feeling like "I know absolutely nothing" in a matter of moments.

Michael and I discuss failure, our own definitions of it, and how it can sometimes feel like, "The End." I personally think that failure, a dose of humility, and a little bit of self-doubt are absolutely crucial, personally and professionally.

This episode is deep, and we talk about some really profound existential experiences, including the importance of community and connection.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

  1. Understand how society often rewards certainty, but true growth and change come from embracing curiosity, approaching challenges with an open mind, seeking out new perspectives, and exploring different solutions.
  2. Learn how to reframe failure and imposter syndrome as a learning experience to tap into our resilience and uncover new opportunities for growth.
  3. Identify ways to build a network of diverse, supportive, and trusted individuals who can provide feedback, guidance, and support during difficult times.

It takes courage to face failure and impostor syndrome, especially when society tells you to seek certainty and avoid failure. However, if you lead with curiosity, embrace vulnerability and exploration, and welcome changes in your life, you'll be more likely to have greater personal growth and entrepreneurial success.

More about Michael:

Michael Ashford is a communications explorer and a tireless optimist. He has spent years researching leadership, conflict communications, and how to overcome political and social polarization in an effort to chart a path to help us bridge divides, communicate well, and find more common ground. Michael is the Director of Marketing at a Denver-based software company, The Receptionist, as well as a podcaster, a two-time TEDx speaker, and what he calls an "independent journalist" as a shoutout to his former career as a newspaper editor.

Grab a free trial of The Receptionist for iPad, with an extra free month for signing up.

Michael's Website:


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A Thanks to Our Sponsors: The Receptionist for iPad & Heard!

✨ The Receptionist for iPad:

I would also like to thank The Receptionist for iPad for sponsoring this episode.

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✨ Heard:

I would also like to thank Heard for sponsoring this episode.

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PATRICK CASALE: Hey everyone, you're listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale. I'm joined today by my friend and colleague, Michael Ashford. He is the Director of Marketing at or the Receptionist for iPad. And he is also, I just learned this, a TEDx Speaker Coach out in Colorado. So, really cool to have you here, and really excited to talk about the topic that we're going to talk about today.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: Patrick, man, thanks so much for having me on. Always good to chat with you and connect, always good.

PATRICK CASALE: So, you told me before we started that you were a TEDx Speaker Coach. And now I'm like, my brain is going like, "Wow, maybe we should talk about that." And also we're going to talk about the psychology of change. I think we can create a conversation that has both of those topics intertwined. 

So, tell me a little bit about, like, why the psychology of change feels like an important topic to you, and how you've been kind of seeing that conversation come up in your circles and how you've been speaking about that, in general.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: Well, this will flow into TEDx because it was the topic or the preliminary topic of my first TEDx talk that happened at the event where I am now the head Speaker Coach, TEDx Manitou Springs, which is a small community right outside Springs, Colorado. 

And I was the first speaker at the first event, way back in 2021, still kind of height of the pandemic, but I started, actually, my personal podcast, the follow up question in 2020, as we were experiencing just this massive societal upheaval of, of course, the pandemic. We had the presidential election between Trump and Biden, and then we had just the racial angst that was happening in the wake of the murders of BreonnaTaylor, and George Floyd, and Ahmaud Arbery. 

And so, I'm sitting on the couch with my wife, and just thinking, I'm watching the news, and I'm like, "I don't think this is an accurate representation of who we are. I think we have the ability to find more common ground to affect more positive change with each other than the news, social media would have you believe." 

And so that really set me off on this journey that led to my TEDx talk that led to me thinking about not only, you know, can people change, but if they can, if you believe they can, then how and why do they change? What are the factors? What is the psychology that has to take place of that person, of the person that's trying to change that person? That has led me to not only explore that on my podcast, we explore that, on our podcast with The Receptionist, our show is called The Fabric. It's all about company culture, and how we manage that as a company grows, and shifts, and changes. And yeah, that was the topic of now two of my TEDx talks that happened with TEDx Manitou Springs. And then yeah, I was invited to be the Head Speaker Coach after giving a couple talks. 

So, long-winded answer to your question, perhaps, but that's what got me thinking about, yeah how do people actually change? How is change truly affected and sustained?

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. I mean, I think that's such an important existential question to ask, especially, while all of the stuff is happening right? In society. And it's a good time to start questioning that because I think you do get into this headspace where it's like, you just see the bad, you just see the bad, and it's very overwhelming. And I think it's really easy to get lost in that and say, everything is bad, everyone is bad. Nobody can come to this, like middle ground place where we can have actual discussion or conversation. 

So, there's extrinsic and external factors when we're talking about change, right? And what have you kind of come to terms with or what's your conclusion on this? And when you're asking that question, like, can people change and what's the motivation and reason behind it?

MICHAEL ASHFORD: I think your answer to that first question tells me a lot. Do you believe people can change? Like, if you don't, then how will you tend to show up in conversations when conflict and disagreement exist? You're going to find find ways to try and control and force change out of people, or force change onto people. 

And so many of us don't have the control and the authority to do that. And so it happens when we focus our attention on trying to change things that are outside of our ability to change them, outside of our focus of control. So much of social media and the news is… the dominant topic is things that are these huge issues that are being handled by people far, far away, that get us all in a stir and a rush to try and change something that we honestly don't have a lot of ability to affect that change. 

So, your answer to that question, if it's no, do I believe people can change? No, you're going to try and force it. And we all know that never works or rarely works unless we have this autocratic control to force change. And even then it's not sustainable. You're not getting to the heart of true change. 

So, if you do believe that people can change, if you do answer that question with the affirmative, yes, I believe in people. And by the way, Patrick, everyone I've ever asked that question of 100% of the time they've told me that, yes, I believe people can change. We want to believe people can change, we know people can change, we want that for people. There's an optimism still remaining there, no matter what the rest of the world tells you or looks like. 

If you believe people can change and I believe that you do, then you have to start asking questions of why and how. And leadership coach and author John C. Maxwell said it my favorite way. He said that people change when they learn enough that they want to, when they see enough that they're inspired to, when they receive enough that they're able to, and when they hurt enough that they have to. One of those things is not like the other, Patrick. I don't know about you, I don't know about anybody listening to this, I never want to hurt somebody to change. And that's another way of saying force someone to change. 

So, our goal, then, if we want to affect change should be to teach, and to inspire, and to provide the avenues and the methods in the ways that people can change without forcing that on people. And because, and final point here, how people change matters. People change when they are given the space to come to that decision to change themselves when they are given the tools, the tactics, the information, the ideas, the inspiration to say, you know what? There's such a dissonance in my mind from what I believe to what I now know to be true. That's how people change. That's how people change. And that can't be I'm just going to throw as many facts at people as possible because Dr. Leon Davey told me facts don't solve fights, that fights and arguments are emotional. They're emotionally charged and facts tend to not matter as much. 

So, we've got to find other ways to lead with curiosity to affect change. That's a lot of the exploration that I've been on, at least. And I've talked to a lot of people that confirm that and back that up. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree with that 100%. I think that's really well said. And I do think people need the autonomy to make their own decisions when change is being elicited. And you can provide information, you can provide support, you can provide guidance. But again, like you just said, facts don't solve fights. I really like that because that's so true, because so much of this stuff that we kind of feel really deeply rooted in is really emotionally charged, and there's a lot of passion, and there's a lot of feelings of personalization in a lot of these discussions to an argument. 

So, I like the fact that if we're thinking about it this way, and like you said, if you answered the question, yes, and as a helper and a mental health professional, I have to move into, I always have to have the mindset that people can change. 


PATRICK CASALE: And I think do this job without that [INDISCERNIBLE 00:10:08].

MICHAEL ASHFORD: I would question your motivation if you didn't answer that question in the affirmative.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, if you're not answering yes to that, and you're a helper, you may really want to do some evaluation, of course. And, you know, I can say a little bit, and, you know, I talk openly about my own struggles and story all the time on here and in general, but as someone who had a former gambling addiction, which was wreaking havoc on my life, I made a lot of bad decisions, and I ostracized myself from my community, and I definitely ruined a lot of relationships. And in that moment, like, you have to even ask yourself in that purely like hellacious time period, is change possible? Because if you can't answer yes in that instance, too, even when life feels like walls are closing in and there is no way out, why would you keep going? Like, what would be the motivation to do anything differently. 

And I think a lot of this is about who we surround ourselves with, who we pay attention to, who we are open to feedback from, who we're seeking guidance and support from. I think all of that stuff matters a lot. 

And I grew up like in a system with friend groups where it was very closed-minded. There was a lot of racism, there was a lot of bigotry, there was a lot of insulation, and fearfulness, and discrimination in the social groups that I was a part of as a child and adolescent. And going to college, like, surrounding yourself with different people, being more open-minded, allowing yourself to receive feedback, exploring different cultural identities, sharing space and conversation with people, and just being curious, like you mentioned, is life-changing for me. And I think that for a lot of people, you know, the ability to have that affirmative answer about change being possible is a definitive yes. 

And we're talking about like, this is an entrepreneurial mindset podcast, in a lot of ways, this impacts entrepreneurial success too.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: Yes, it does.

PATRICK CASALE: Because if you are, like, firmly rooted in my business is a disaster, I don't know what I'm doing, you can't be successful doing A, B, C, D, and E, and you surround yourself with those people, your mindset really does solidify, and entrench itself in the negative thinking patterns. 

But if you're willing to be curious, if you're willing to be open-minded, if you're willing to have conversations with mentors, and colleagues, and guides, and friends, and you're willing to kind of test those limits, that's where you kind of start to see a catalyst for growth as well.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: That falls into something else that's been a spin-off of a lot of the exploration that I've done around this topic, which is, our society rewards certainty. We're taught in school, through our education system to find the right answer, the right answer in air quotes, and be certain. And that leaves out an entire aspect of communication, of interacting with other people that makes all of this possible, makes growth and success possible, which is the extraction, which is the curious mindset, which is wanting to explore and being open to the possibility of change in yourself, while not necessarily making it a goal to change someone else. We reward certainty, especially, in business. Every entrepreneur has to walk into, you know, the boardroom, or the investment room, or what have you, a meeting with a potential new client. and the expectation and the pressure is you must be certain in your ability to do the job, full stop. 

And there's an aspect of that, yes, you want to have confidence, but that leaves out curiosity. If you are certain, and you go in every situation where you feel you have to know the answer and be right, then what does that do to your own mental health? What does that do to the pressure that you feel day in and day out? Because, honestly, none of us have all the answers. But if we walk around where we feel like we have to have all the answers, man, you're getting into some dangerous, dangerous places where you feel like your business success is your success. And that's a slippery slope. That's a really, really slippery slope.

PATRICK CASALE: It's a really dangerous ground because that's where impostor syndrome and this paralyzing perfectionism surfaces really intensely too, when you're feeling like, oh, go ahead, sorry.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: Oh well, and I would add to that, or failure feels like the end. 

PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah. 

MICHAEL ASHFORD: And read into that statement however you feel.

PATRICK CASALE: Failure for me, you know, we talk so much about normalizing fear and failure on this podcast because I think it's so important because I think you're right, like if you're walking around in the business world as an entrepreneur feeling like, "I have to have it all together all the time, I have to know everything." I think it's almost kind of distancing you from humility, it's kind of distancing you from second-guessing and some anxiety because some of this is really helpful. But we've been trained and taught like you aren't supposed to be anxious, you're supposed to be confident, you're not supposed to doubt yourself, and you're supposed to go into every situation already knowing like you're the expert. 

But I don't think that's really reality. Like, you can certainly study, and train, and, you know, develop skill sets and habits that make you, you know, more successful or more confident. 

But I think a dose of like humility, and self-doubt, and insecurity is actually quite helpful because it does, like you're mentioning, allow you to be curious about the alternative explanations, the alternative solutions because if everything you do is black and white, and it's like, if this does not work, my pitch, my program, my pod, whatever, and it doesn't work, and it flops, and you mentioned, like failure being the end, then it's very easy to just give up. And it's very easy to just say, "Yeah, I wasn't cut out for this, or I'm not good at this, or this is a direct reflection of my self-worth." When in reality, if you can reframe that as like, this is just kind of testing the waters and it's kind of giving me insight into what to shift, or change, or how to evolve, or adapt, and pivot. And I think those qualities make really successful entrepreneurs and human beings.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: You're talking a lot about one of my favorite models or theories. Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? 

PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MICHAEL ASHFORD: Yeah, you've got that initial Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysicist said it best, one of the one of the greatest challenges in the modern world is knowing enough to believe that you are right, but not knowing enough to know that you are wrong. I love that. It's from his advertisement for his masterclass, actually. 

But you have that initial point where it is the peak of mount stupid is what it's called on the Dunning Kruger effect curve, where you you'd know a little bit to think that you are so right and certain. It's that certainty we just talked about. And then you start to learn a little bit more, and you fall off this cliff into this valley, or this pit of despair, or you're like, "I know nothing, I'm a failure. This is the worst, I thought I knew all this, and I've been doing everything wrong."

And then once you start to come out of that, if you push through that you come up to what is eventually called the peak of enlightenment, and the plateau of sustainability where your focus is on consistent growth and learning from failure. And this idea that you always have something else to learn from. 

And I recently spoke with, on my show, The Follow-Up Question, her name is Raquel Garcia, a 13-year sober, former drug addict, just multiple traumas in her life. And you said something earlier, Patrick, that she reiterated, and that has been reiterated to me in many conversations I've had on this topic, which is, you must have community, you must have connection, there must be something there that someone or some group of people can pour into you, to get you out of that valley of despair, that pit of despair from the Princess Bride, "You're at the pits of despair." You've got to have that community, that like the community coming back to people and places that can ground you, that can help you reset. That is so very necessary when we're talking about entrepreneurship, when we're talking about change from gambling addiction, or drug problems, or alcoholism, or any number of issues that people could be dealing with. A connection to community is what can pull you out of it. Absolutely. So, I want to affirm that, and so, that thing you said, you know, kind of in passing earlier, so true, man, so very true.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree. One, I agree with the imagery and discussion around the pit of despair, and just finding that enlightenment. And also, you know, I think that's so helpful, you know, as far as human beings and entrepreneurs like to just struggle to come out of it, to use the resources to collaborate to connect, to doubt yourself, and do it anyway, I'm going to trademark that phrase. 

But I think that's so useful, and it's so grounding in a lot of ways because I don't really walk into most situations like 100% confident about my ability, it's probably more so like, I'm feeling like, really out of my element, but that driving force is actually really motivating for me, and it also allows me to connect to humaneness, and it allows you to show that human side that is relatable which I think allows us to really trust each other when we're able to disclose and be honest about our experiences.

Like, I've spoken at conferences and just admitted immediately, I'm like, "Whoa, I'm on stage and I'm like, I'm having major impostor syndrome. I feel really fraudulent. And my heart is beating like a mile a minute." You say that in front of an audience, and everyone's like nodding their head and affirming that, and then you're like, "Oh, all right, I feel okay, now, I can talk about the thing that I actually know what I'm talking about." But I agree with your comment about community. 

And I think for most people, whether we're talking about addiction, whether we're talking about any sort of struggle, like the opposite of the struggle is probably having connection and community and support. And Gabor Ma Tei always talks about that. Johann Hari like talks about that, about addiction being the opposite of connection. And I believe that wholeheartedly. And I believe that in more than just addiction, I believe that in just life, and how often we feel so disconnected from each other, and how often like, we're on social media, and maybe there's a facade or maybe there's lots of relationships, but behind the scenes, there can be a lot of loneliness, disconnection, and isolation. It really does make this positive change or the ability to change feel more challenging when you are constantly, like, berating yourself or just holding yourself to these unrealistic standards of the coaches that you follow, or the entrepreneurs you follow, or the podcasts that you follow. And it can create this image of like, "Everyone else has it all together but me."

And I just cannot stress enough to those of you listening that could not be further from the truth. Like, anyone you follow who has a successful following, business, whatever, has struggles, I promise you. There is no one out there who's like, this has just been a fucking breeze, and like everything is so natural and easy. It's just not reality. 

So, really important to remind us of our humaneness of just like, we need connection, we need support, we need to support one another, and listen to each other. And we're not always going to agree on everything. I think that's also important to remember too. Like, I don't really want to exist in an echo chamber. I know my values, I know where I'm rooted, and where I stand on issues. But I also don't want to surround myself with just yes people, I don't want to surround myself with people who are always just going to tell me what I want to hear. That's not helpful. Like, that doesn't create growth, that actually creates stagnation.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: And that was actually the topic of my second TEDx talk, which is-

PATRICK CASALE: We didn't rehearse any of this, by the way.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: Yeah, we did not. I've titled it, Are You a Peacekeeper or a Peacemaker? And a peacekeeper does exactly what you just said, Patrick. You go into your bubble, you create this illusion of peace by never making anything hard, or challenging, or uncomfortable, and so, you might feel peaceful but it's an illusion because you always know that there is like this, I call it the specter of disharmony. It's this ghostly figure just like lurking off to the side that you know at any moment your life could be in disarray just from one interaction from one person. 

A peacemaker actively seeks out that real true authentic peace. And peace does not mean, to what you just said, it does not mean we agree on everything, it does not mean that we align on our values, even. We may value the same thing, they just may be in a different order of alignment. But it can quiet the little voice in your head where you say, "You know what? I'm good. We disagree. I understand where they're coming for. I can have empathy for that person. We disagree. Here are some things that we're going to focus on where we have some common ground and where we can actually affect change and move change forward."

So, yeah, I know, the topic of pieces is a whole nother thing. But yeah, I lost my train of thought there. But I do agree, you can't just shrink into yourself, for sure. 

Oh, I remember what I was going to say. I take the mindset, in a lot of these situations, of going back to what I said earlier about certainty, take the mindset of being an explorer rather than an expert, and see how that changes your feelings of impostor syndrome, your feelings of having to have all the right answers. If you're an explorer, you're just finding out what's out there. And then you're relaying that back to us as "Hey, look what I found." Rather than, "Hey, look what I know." And it's a fun way to think about it.

PATRICK CASALE: I like that. I think that's super helpful. And for those of you listening, I know a lot of you struggle with impostor syndrome and feeling inadequate or like you're not doing enough. And we can move through the world with curiosity, even when that impostor syndrome is showing up, that anxiety, that self-doubt, you can be really curious about it like, hey, I always do this now. Like, I used to allow impostor syndrome to paralyze and debilitate, but now I just embrace it and I'm like, "Okay, it's surfacing." And then I check in with myself, like, why is it surfacing? What's coming up for me around whatever's happening? It's a lot more manageable to try to combat it that way, instead of just being like, "Oh, shit, like, I don't know what I'm doing." Shut everything down, and like, let it dictate your life, and circumstances, and decision-making. So, just really being curious. 

And I think when we're taking risks, like, you should have a little doubt, you should have a little anxiety. Like, I don't want to just dive off the deep end. Like, I [INDISCERNIBLE 00:26:41] into every decision I make. So, I do want to question myself, I just don't want to question myself so much that I never make the decision. 

And I think that has been a mental shift for me. And that has been a change for me over the last three years when I kept myself small, decided nobody would ever buy coaching from me, nobody would ever hire me to help them with their practices. And I was like, "I'll just have my own practice over here, it's fine, I'm full, I'm bored. Like, I need other things to do." My brain was like, really understimulated. And I did that for years. And I've talked about this on this podcast before. 

And then when I just made the decision because I connected with a mentor, and we processed it. And I was like, "Okay, I'm putting this out to the world that I'm going to start a coaching business to help therapists start their practices." And that's where it started in August of 2020. And here we are in May of 2023 and I just sold out three international retreats in 12 hours.


PATRICK CASALE: It's crazy, 

MICHAEL ASHFORD: Phenomenal man.

PATRICK CASALE: That never happens if I never make that decision to start the thing, to change my mindset about what I was capable of, and what I was capable of creating. And I think so many of us just miss out on life because we just don't try. 

So, for those of you listening, I just want to encourage you to just try. Put the idea out to the world, put it out there to supportive people, not people who are going to say like, "Oh, that idea sucks, nobody's ever going to pay you for that." Those are not the people you want to surround yourself with. But it really is important to just try and get started, and take that first step, and acknowledge like, it's going to be a bumpy road. Entrepreneurialship is not an easy, like life all the time, despite social media's images and videos like, it is 90% behind the scenes, like questioning everything, and 10% of like this is amazing.

But I wouldn't have it any other way. And I think it allows you as you start taking these risk, and changing your mindset, and surrounding yourself with different people, each additional risk doesn't get less risky, but it gets so much easier to make the decision to take it. And for me, that is everything. Like, renting an entire medieval Italian village is an enormous risk. I'm basically throwing like an enormous wedding/conference summit for therapists and mental health entrepreneurs. But I had to step into that and embrace that fearfulness, and that anxiety and that self-doubt to create something really spectacular. So, I think that's the message that I really want to offer today in this conversation and what we're talking about.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: And had it failed, Patrick, and it's not because it's sold out, but had it failed, it would not have been a reflection on you. It would have just simply been something you explored that you realized, "Hey, doesn't work this way that I tried to do it." 


MICHAEL ASHFORD: And even leaning into that imposter syndrome, like you said, when you're on a stage and thinking, "What am I doing here?" Even just calling it out and saying, "You know what? I feel like an impostor right now, but we're going to dig into this a little bit more and explore why." Leading with that curiosity, setting your certainty aside, and realizing failure is not a reflection on you, the person, man, you're going to go some places if you take that mindset.

PATRICK CASALE: Couldn't say it better myself. And I think, again, for those of you listening, whether it's a practice, whether it's a podcast, a coaching program, whether it's just considering leaving your agency job to start your own business, that is enough, just that thought right there is enough to be that catalyst for momentum. And then, it's just about whenever I name and claim, and I put impostor syndrome out to the world or self-doubt, it kind of gives you back the power and control because when you don't allow it to get out of your head or your body, and it's just manifesting and ruminating, that's where all the illogical thinking and irrational thought patterns and fearfulness comes in because you're like, "Okay, yeah, this isn't going to work." And then that thought leads to another thought, which leads to another thought. Just put it out to the fucking world and just watch it, and pay attention, and be curious about the shift, psychologically, and somatically. Like, the feeling in your body when you're like, "This is what I'm feeling like, but I'm going to do it anyway." It's really transformative and it's really freaking powerful.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: I love it, man. That's a great place to leave it, I think.

PATRICK CASALE: We've been on and, you know, this is another good example, for everyone listening, like, we don't script these podcasts, we just see where the conversations go. And I think-


PATRICK CASALE: This is a great example of just being willing both of us to be like, "Hey, here's the topic loosely, we're going to see where it goes."

And I think for all of you just try to embrace your sense of self and your sense of confidence. Like, you know what you're talking about and it's okay to feel uncomfortable about how you show up, and it will get easier over time. 

Michael, thank you so much for making the time, man. And it's been a pleasure getting to know you this year. And for those of you who don't know, Michael is the Director of Marketing with The Receptionist for iPad. They've been a sponsor of the podcast for a while now. And I only allow these types of conversations in terms of sponsorship, or collaboration, or partnership with businesses and people I trust because it's a reflection of me, it's a reflection of my reputation. If I send you to a web designer or someone who does SEO, or mows lawns, who just doesn't show up, takes your money, doesn't do the service well, that's a reflection on me. So, I really wholeheartedly believe in what they're doing, their vision, their values, and the product they offer. 

So, Michael, please tell the audience where they can find more what you're doing.

MICHAEL ASHFORD: I appreciate that man. And yeah, we are a client… we call it a client-checking system. So, for the folks walking in your office or your location, you're in a session, they need a way to check in and let you know that they're there so that that kind of anxiety of your visit kind of decreases a little bit, that's what our system helps you do. And we do that for the hundreds and hundreds of private practices. Even one and two-person private practices around the world, really. We're in 38 different countries, not all of them are private practices, obviously. But yeah, you can check out If you sign up for our 14-day free trial there, you also get your first month with us free. So, it's kind of like a month and a half with a 14-day free trial that you can get for free. 

And yeah, man, we're we are such a proud partner of the work that you're doing because of this conversation that we've had right now. Like, these are the conversations we have internally, as a leadership team at The Receptionist and with our employees, and the types of conversations that we have on our podcast, The Fabric. We want people to show up, Fabric stands for our core values, fun, authentic, bold, respectful, innovative, and collaborative. And that A is authentic, we want people in business to be more authentic than a lot of the examples that are out there of entrepreneurship, and what that looks like, this costume that you have to put on to be an entrepreneur or that so many people think you have to put on to be an entrepreneur, to go back to that certainty, you got to put on the costume of certainty, and I know it all, and I'd never fail. And that's not the real world. Just like forcing change is not real, like we discussed earlier, this costume of certainty, and that you have it all together and entrepreneurship is not real. And we want to change the conversation around what building a great business looks like. And we happen to sell a product that helps you succeed in that endeavor. 

So, I appreciate it, man. It's been a wonderful, wonderful partnership with you and the show, you know, just the folks who have connected with us through the show are wonderful, wonderful customers of ours now and couldn't be happier man. So, props to you and the success that you're having too. We'll talk offline on getting The Receptionist in front of some of those folks at those events, too.

PATRICK CASALE: Sounds good, man. And again, for everyone listening that's and that will be in the show notes so you all have easy access to that. And again, I could not recommend it highly enough.

For everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice Podcast, new episodes are out every single week on all major podcast platforms. Make sure to like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. We'll see you next week.


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