Episode 189: Motivational Interviewing — Fostering Hope in Uncertain Times [featuring Hillary Logan]

Show Notes

It can be easy to feel overwhelmed, burnt out, or in need of hope during uncertain times in our lives. In this episode, Patrick Casale and Hillary Logan talk about using Motivational Interviewing (MI) as a realistic, strengths-based way to cultivate hope—even amidst collective uncertainty.

3 Key takeaways:

1. Reground in the “Spirit” of MI: Hillary highlighted four core elements—compassion, acceptance, empowerment, and partnership. By practicing self-compassion and embracing self-acceptance, we allow ourselves the grace to be where we are, not where we “should” be.
2. Empowerment Isn’t All-or-Nothing: Sometimes taking action means boundary-setting, resting, or simply stepping away from the news to protect your mental health. Empowerment can look like giving yourself permission to do less, not more.
3. Community and Connection Matter: Whether it’s drawing on our internal resources or actively seeking community support, partnership—both with ourselves and others—is vital for resilience. Even small moments of connection can restore hope and energy during tough times.

More about Hillary Logan, MSW, LCSW and LCAS, member of the MINT:

Hillary Logan has been a member of the Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers (MINT) since 2011. She is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Addiction Therapist. Hillary has worked as a helping professional for 20 years, ranging from working in wilderness therapy to community mental health, providing in-home and school-based services, and as a therapist with specialties including working with anxiety, trauma, addiction, and veterans.

• Free resources: micenterforchange.com/free-resources
• Hope course: micenterforchange.com/Eight-ways-to-hope-course
• Level 1: Foundations of Motivational Interviewing course: micenterforchange.com/beginner-foundations
• Email: hillary@micenterforchange.com

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to All Things Private Practice. I'm joined today by a good friend who lives in Asheville with me, Hillary Logan, who is a member of Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers, MINT, since 2011. She is a licensed clinical social worker and addiction therapist. Literally, has been working as a helping professional for 20 years. And you created the MI Center for Change. I don't even know why that's not in your bio. I was so confused by your bio. I was like, "What is happening here?" We have so many people on here who just don't want to talk about their creations and accomplishments. We probably need to unpack that at some point.

My hair looks insane. I've been like, letting it grow out, waiting for a haircut [INDISCERNIBLE 00:01:41]. And I'm just like, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:01:43].

Okay, so round two, because you had come on here last year-ish, maybe even longer at this point, and just the audio wasn't working well. So, glad to have you back. Sorry it took so long to happen, but I think it's a good time.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah, we've had a few things happen since then.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, we've had a few things happening since then. And because you do specialize in motivational interviewing and how it's applicable in so many different areas of our life, I think it's really a great time to talk about how we can use MI for hope. That was your idea. Not really liked it, because what's happening in our country right now certainly doesn't create a lot of room for that at the moment. And you and I both lived through Hurricane Helene here too. So, there's been a lot of stuff happening over the last couple of months.

HILLARY LOGAN: So much. And in October, a few weeks, maybe close to a month after Helene, I was flying to give a training in Boston. So, I was leaving Asheville, which had been devastated by Helene. And I was in the airplane, taking off with a book that Bill Miller had written recently called Eight Ways to Hope. And Bill Miller, for those that don't know, is one of the co-creators of Motivational Interviewing. And he's done a bunch of research about how important hope is for us to have hope in our clients, for us to have hope in our lives, and in our futures.

And so, I was reading this book as the plane took off. And I felt this loosening in my chest that happened, this thematic experience of like, okay, I not only had to leave Asheville, I needed to feel like my body was safe again. And also, I needed the message of hope at the same time.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely, that's a great little like introduction into this. I did the exact opposite post Helene, where I idiotically decided I needed to leave for a lot of reasons, and went to St. Pete, Florida, where my dad lives, which also got wrecked by Helene plus Milton, and got down there and was like, "This is not what my body or my mental state needs right now." And I got on another plane and flew to Key West because I was like, "This will make me feel better. I'll be in Key West." And then it was like one week post-election results, and I was like, "What am I doing to myself?"

HILLARY LOGAN: Right?

PATRICK CASALE: What am I doing to myself?

HILLARY LOGAN: Well, you were trying. You were trying to find some territory that would make you feel better, you know? And that's something I think we're all trying to orient ourselves to, over and over again every day is like, "How can I help myself feel better based off of what's happening around me, what's happening inside of me?"

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. That's very true. I was trying. I just was not making good, healthy, rational decision in those moments.

Okay, so with that statement, we're just trying. We're trying to make ourselves feel better. We're trying to make sense of what's happening, not only to me, but around me.

So, tell us like, okay, contextually, when I think of motivational interviewing, you know, from my work experience, it was always geared towards like Stages of Change, and specifically, with substance use and addiction.

So, to apply it in so many different arenas, you know, I'm sure a lot of people who are listening, who are clinicians are like, "Wait, I thought this was only for like pre-contemplative people, or people who are in, you know, the prepared stage or whatever." So, give us context in terms of like, it's so much more than that.

HILLARY LOGAN: It is. Motivational interviewing is so much more than that. And because it's been around for four decades, since the early 80s, and because it was born in addiction, it's often associated with addiction and with the Stages of Change, which is kind of not MI, but they actually came out around the same time, and they can be used really complimentary.

But MI at this stage is more broadly a way of talking with people about change and growth that helps them strengthen their own motivation and commitment to the change and growth that they want to make.

And so, specifically, today, I know we're going to talk some about how we can use motivational interviewing to support our own change and growth. And then, again, more broadly, MI is now in so many disciplines and fields. There are more applications than we could cover in a podcast.

PATRICK CASALE: Totally, totally. So, I love setting the stage that way. So, tell us about it right now, this day and age. We are at March 5th. This won't get released for a couple months, so those of you listening who are going to be like, "When was this recorded?" So, today is March 5th. We have a lot going on around us, happening on a moment by moment basis. It often feels like. And I think it's intentional, so that we do feel demoralized, and confused, and chaotic, and overwhelmed and hopeless. I think the goal is to create collective, shared hopelessness.

So, holding on to that hope, or that ability to remain somewhat optimistic, even if it's in very small doses, is so unbelievably important. So, can you talk to us a little bit about how do we cultivate that and what does that look like right now?

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah, absolutely. It remains hard for us to orient every day to the resources and things that are going to help us stay grounded, and clear headed, and continue moving forward. You know, it's really quite challenging to do those things right now.

So, I think where this relates to motivational interviewing for me is this opportunity for us to reground into the spirit elements of motivational interviewing. And spirit and MI means heart set and mindset, really. And so, it's re-grounding in these beliefs, this heart set and mindset of these four elements, which is compassion, acceptance, empowerment, and partnership. And so, we can explore these together a little bit today, like what that looks like as applied to self-change and self-grounding. And I figured we might start with, like, kind of the compassion.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure, yeah. Take us away.

HILLARY LOGAN: Self-compassion like as a starting point, like to take a breath and invite ourselves into some self-compassion for how hard this is right now, how scary, alarming. Like, we are suffering individually and collectively. Our clients are suffering. This is hard. So, some of like what the mindfulness, Buddhist, and self-compassion practices invite us into is like a mindfulness moment around that self-compassion.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I know that can be really hard for people to access. So, if we start with self-compassion, and we try really hard to just even allow 1% of it in. And we try really hard to give ourselves a little bit of a break for we could feel like we're not doing enough, we're not setting enough, we're not advocating enough, we're not informed enough, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And at some point, you do also have to truly protect yourself, your energy, your capacity, your limitations. And to give yourself permission.

HILLARY LOGAN: Absolutely, yeah. And there can be action steps that come out of that, you know, if we need more space for self-compassion. Like, what boundaries might need to be thought for that? What are action steps that we might want to take for that?

But really, one of the things I love about motivational interviewing is it's not prescriptive. You know, we are never telling people what to do if we're in motivational interviewing mode. So, we come back to what do you need in this moment and eliciting that.

And so, for listeners, if we're inviting you into some self-compassion, what do you need to bring yourself more into that self-compassion? And that's going to be different for every single listener that it is.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, yeah, that's a great point. Kind of allows for a little bit more looseness and like, okay, it doesn't have to look a certain way. Like, I don't have to show up a certain way. And I think that, like, come as you are, mentality and just show up as you are, and to be able to really check in on yourself and do that inventory when you're able to, because I think that's really, really a good foundational starting point. So, if we start there, then what comes next? Where are we going from there?

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah, yeah. So, starting with that, yeah, compassion, maybe today I'm doing the best I can with what I have. And then, moving into acceptance, which is another element of the spirit of MI. So, self-acceptance.

PATRICK CASALE: Sure, that acceptance of like, hey, I accept what's happening around me and in the world. I feel really accepting and good about that. It's more about I'm accepting myself. I'm accepting how I'm experiencing things. I'm accepting how I'm showing up.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yes, I am accepting that this is where I'm at today, maybe today is the day that I have energy to call my congress people and go volunteer or etc., and maybe today is a day that I don't and can I? And this is where these two blend, right? Self-compassion and self-acceptance is can I today be where I'm at? Big breath.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and you all can do this along at home, as you're listening. You know, unless you're driving down the interstate maybe table this until later.

HILLARY LOGAN: Some gentleness, like inviting in gentleness with yourself, awareness, tenderness. You know, I know that you're also a fan of IFS or internal family systems. And so, like thinking about the parts of us that can be hard on ourselves, or, you know, drive us to go, go, go, or do, do, do. And, you know, kind of the paradox of change is often that we have to start with acceptance.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, totally, yep, yep. Because right now, I mean, it can be parts that show up, right, that say all of these negative things about how we are experiencing, reacting, moving through, not doing enough, etc. So, just allowing for that acceptance of those can exist too, and like, they don't have to steer the ship, so to speak, but they can still simultaneously exist and coincide next to us. Okay, so we have self-compassion, acceptance.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah. And then, empowerment is a third element of the spirit of MI. And so, the questions here for me are really like, what empowers you into what it is that you need? Whether that's stillness or action. Who are you? What do you have to bring to the table? And when are the right times to do that right?

PATRICK CASALE: Right. So, there was a lot during the hurricane here in Appalachia where people were in action mode all the time. It was the first week, a lot of people were in like, "I've got to be in action and I've got to help the community. I've got to show up. I've got to collect resources. I've got to do all the things."

Inevitably and understandably, immediately led to intense, crash, burnout, apathy, removal. So, really honoring like when do I have the energy? When do I feel empowered to act? When do I feel empowered to rest? When do I feel empowered to turn my phone off and get off of fucking social media.

I started this habit a couple of years ago. As my audience got bigger and messages increased, I noticed like this, there's a, you know, if we're looking at it from IFS lens, there's an ego state to like building audience too. It's like, "Oh my God, look at all these people who all love my stuff."

So, having to put my phone in a different room every night, starting at 5pm and not looking at it at all has been unbelievably helpful for my mood to say. So, when do I feel empowered to step away from that? When do I feel empowered to give myself permission to break that rule? You know, as an autistic person in the black and white rule setting that I set for myself sometimes has to get a little gray.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah, empowering into flexibility.

PATRICK CASALE: Empower into less rigidity. So, empowerment, yes, absolutely.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah, absolutely. And I've seen this like as I've been tracking myself in this political climate and post Helene, and on and on is thinking like are there boundaries I need to set with people?

You know, like I noticed over the last couple of weeks when I would see friends, or be messaging with friends, you know, suddenly the onslaught of, "Did you hear this is happening, and he's doing this, and this is…" That it feels to me like I'm getting hit with shrapnel. And so, I empowered myself to ask loved ones like, "Please don't tell me the news right now. I need to choose when to approach the news when I'm resourced in enough for that."

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's a great, great point. And I think one that's applicable for a lot of people, myself included, because I think you can almost shame yourself or shame other people, like you're not as informed, you're not paying attention all the time. And then, it's like, in reality, what is paying attention all the time going to do? You can get the cliff notes at the end of the day from trusted sources or at the end of the week. Super important, because it really is easy to get really sucked in and have that consumed, you know, whether we want to call it doom scrolling, whether we want to call it hyper focus, whatever is happening, but really, truly impactful. So, I like that setting that boundary is important for sure.

I'm going to Ireland for my retreat on Sunday. And one of my speakers and close friends, he and I are in a similar headspace with everything, and very outspoken. And I said, when we're in Ireland, can we just be in Ireland, so just like not talk about all of the things that are consuming our lives and our mental states, because, like, you need a reprieve, you need a break, you need to have moments of hope, and optimism, and joy without constantly feeling 24/7 existential dread.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah, we got to fill up the gas tank before we drive and in order to drive. And that metaphor might be a little painful for those in Nashville, you know, the hurricane hit, we had no gas like, right? Literally, the metaphor we do have to juice ourselves up. This is a long game that we're in, and so listeners can consider what juices me up. Like, what is it that's going to fill me, and what action steps do I actually need to do to support that?

And it may change day-by-day. You know, I tend towards some rigid thinking too, so I create a rule for myself, like, I'm going to do this every day. And then I don't, and then I feel beat up on myself so that I lose the self-compassion, and self-acceptance, and that's not helpful either. But, like, what about today?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah. And motivational interviewing, you know, has specific strategies that help us anchor into our why change and how change, specific to us. And so, if as a result of listening today, you're like, "Oh, I need to set that boundary with this person." Or I need to fill in the blank, then am I is so potent because it first anchors this into why is this important to me? Why is it like based off of you, and your values, and your needs in this moment? And then, how are you as an individual going to do that? Like, this empowers each individual to make their own decisions about what they need to do in the ways that they need to do it.

PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah, that's really important and very individualistic, which I like, because not everyone's situation is going to be the same. So, we go through empowerment. Where do we end up? 

HILLARY LOGAN: The fourth of the spirit elements of MI is partnership. And when we apply this like as a helping professional with clients, what we're doing there is we're acknowledging I'm not an expert in your life. You have expertise in your life. I have expertise too, together, partnering, let's see what can be done to make the change that you want to make.

When I think about this partnership, spirit element for self-change, I actually think a bit more about like the IFS model stuff is like, if I've got my big self-energy inside of me, you know that, like, wisdom, compassion, calm, courage, curiosity, all those C words, then, how do I partner and connect with the parts of me inside to bring that hope, peace, wisdom, you know, connectivity, like into my internal system?

PATRICK CASALE: Right. Yeah, I like that. So, partnering with others, partnering with what's inside of you, the combination of the two. I think partnership is so crucial. I think community, connection is really crucial right now. And obviously, if you're working with clients, partnership is important too.

But in the scope of this conversation, I think, feeling connected to some semblance of community is super important right now and very, very crucial. It's vital to like the survival in general.

You know, keep talking about Helene, keep talking about what's happening politically right now without actually naming it, for a lot of reasons. I saw the community really come together here during and post-Helene. It was amazing to watch. Like, people in partnership, people supporting, people like going out of their way for each other because of a disaster, kind of in like a disaster right now, in a different sense of the word.

So, having to support each other, having to protect each other, having to rely on each other, but then, also having to look inwards and really connect with some of the strengths and assets that you have and the resilience that you have in order to move forward as well.

HILLARY LOGAN: Well said, well said, Yeah, I have like kind of two memories that come to mind as we're talking about partnership. One is the post-Helene. I looked outside of my house one day, and I saw across the street about 20 neighbors gathered around a radio. And they had figured out, like it was potluck, because everybody's electricity had been out, we're losing all our food in our freezers. And, you know, one person in the neighborhood under radio, so we could hear those twice a day radio broadcast and all this stuff, you know? And in the sense, again, like the somatic body shift, of, like, I am in community, and because I'm in community, I'm going to be okay.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think for us the thing that I think about is like everyone being on the same page, because at first, you're so disoriented and confused of like what is happening is this feels chaotic. I don't have any of the information. Walk down the street, there's people gathering, trying to find cell phone service, holding their phone in the air, like looking around and-

HILLARY LOGAN: To get information.

PATRICK CASALE: To get said information. But in reality, acknowledging that nobody had said information and everybody was in the same boat. It was like, this is still scary, but it makes it a little bit more comforting to know that it's not just like me who is experiencing this disorientation, confusion, and chaos. So, there's almost like this collective, I hate to say trauma bonding, but I mean certainly trauma bonding in regards to any sort of emergency situation.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah, and you said disorientation, confusion, and chaos. And so, what does it take for us to flip those? To get oriented, to be less confused, and to quiet the internal chaos? And all of this is back to like these, grounding, like pieces. What grounding, what boundaries, and what actions did people need to do to get there?

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, absolutely. So, as we're coming to the final minutes of this conversation, you've just laid out a pretty simplistic roadmap of how you can really start implementing these things on a daily basis, and sometimes when you need it moment by moment basis. So, any suggestions, strategies, words of wisdom that you want to leave the audience with as we get ready to wrap up?

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah, you know, one of the things I love about motivational interviewing is that it's very strength based, and it really works first and foremost to acknowledge what we're already doing, and then to grow it from there. And so, considering what you're already doing to support yourself right now, and acknowledging that, affirming that, like soaking that in, and then asking yourself, what could I do a little bit more of?

PATRICK CASALE: For sure. Yeah, I like that. It's a really, really nice, easy way to kind of absorb that. So, I like that it's strength-based. I like that it's like, this is just meeting you where you are, that is very individualized. So, you know, this isn't something that we think about very often right now, and I think that it's also important to acknowledge, again, going back to myths and misconceptions about motivational interviewing, that is obviously not just for substance use and addiction treatment. So, really, just cool conversation.

I know you have so many resources for MI. I know you have a course on motivational interviewing for hope, which is kind of the crux of what we're talking about right now. A ton of free resources. So, yeah, share anything you want with the audience or where they can find those things, and we'll link that in the show notes too, for everyone, so you have easy access to all of Hillary's information.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me here. And to everybody listening, thank you for the work you do. You are fighting the good fight, trying to do the good work in your communities. So, take a moment and acknowledge, you know you. And even just listening to this podcast today, you're trying to work on you, you're trying to resource into you. So, thank you for that.

Yeah, MI Centre for Change has a lot of free resources. We have a free resource page. People log in to that. We have a free learning library that has tons of resources, Values Card Sort Downloads on MI, videos, etc. We have a free one-hour webinar, which comes with continuing education, free CE, for those listening to this, lots of CE approval boards. But Dr. Bill Miller speaks for one hour on hope. And it was so refreshing for me to think about the different facets of hope, and how we can choose to hope in different ways, on different days.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah. So, lots of resources online there. And what else?

PATRICK CASALE: That's probably it.

HILLARY LOGAN: Yeah, that's a wrap, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And all of that will be in the show notes, all the links and information, so you'll have access to that. You know, thank you so much for coming on and making the time, and just being an awesome human being. Really appreciate the fact that you've checked in on me over the last couple of years about my throat situation, and that's been really meaningful to me as well. So, really glad we finally got to reconnect like this.

HILLARY LOGAN: Absolutely, voice is important. And here we are, like, trying to amplify voices into the ethers to help support people in the work that they do, and hoping supporting yourselves.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely [CROSSTALK 00:29:19]-

HILLARY LOGAN: …where we can keep changing the world.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. To everyone listening to All Things Private Practice, new episodes are out on Saturdays on all major platforms and YouTube. Make sure to like, download, subscribe, and share. And doubt yourself, do it anyway. We will see you next week.