Episode 191: Why a Great Group Practice Beats Going Solo: Dialectics, Support, and Less Stress [featuring Sabrina Longley]

Show Notes

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Sabrina Longley, LCSW at Resilient Mind Counseling, talk about why authenticity, open communication, and a supportive work environment matter so much for therapists who’d rather work for someone else than run their own practice. They also share how embracing your identity and using dialectics can boost confidence and create a healthier, more collaborative workplace.

Here are 3 key takeaways:

1. The Power of Authenticity: Sabrina beautifully highlights how living authentically at the intersection of her identities (Black, fat, neurodivergent, extroverted, and more) has been non-negotiable for her well-being and effectiveness as a therapist. When workplaces embrace this authenticity, it fuels real connection and reduces burnout.
2. Entrepreneurship isn't for Everyone: There’s immense value in group practice—especially for those who crave structure, community, and stability. Sabrina reminds us that thriving as a therapist doesn’t require running your own business; finding the right container can be just as empowering.
3. Leadership is About Relationship, Not Just Revenue: Patrick’s approach as a group practice owner—centering transparency, vulnerability, and accountability—creates psychological safety for his team. Open communication, a willingness to receive feedback, and acknowledging power dynamics are essential for retention and growth.

Whether you’re a therapist seeking the right clinical setting or a practice leader looking to build an inclusive and supportive team, these insights are a great reminder: You can build (and find) workplaces where everyone has permission to show up as themselves.

More about Sabrina:

I'm an LCSW working in NC with no dreams of becoming a private practice owner. Instead, I have been seeking (and have found) my therapeutic "home". I hold many intersectional identities, and finding the right fit has taken hard work and lessons learned. I live in the triangle area of NC and have worked in IOP and outpatient level of care.

• Sabrina's Profile: resilientmindcounseling.com/sabrina-longley-lcsw

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to All Things Private Practice. I am joined today by the awesome Sabrina Longley, who is an LCSW working in NC with no dreams of becoming a private practice owner, who actually works for my practice, Resilient Mind Counseling.

I'm really excited to have you on because you're one of my favorite people in terms of how you show up online. You help moderate therapists who are supporting neurodiversity. No, that's not right.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Yeah, something like that. Therapist supporting [INDISCERNIBLE 00:01:28].

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, something like that. And I love how you call people in and offer reality checks and perspective checks, of like, "Hey, that's privileged. Hey, that's kind of like microaggression, racist."

Like, I think a lot of therapists who live in these realms and exist in these social media groups and post whatever the fuck they want is alarming to me. But it's actually just amazing to me that it feels like the Wild West in a lot of ways. So, your ability to just show up authentically is really important.

And Sabrina is, I want to frame it correctly and say it correctly, because you will tell me if I'm wrong, which I also appreciate, you're DBT trained, but you told me I couldn't use a specific word.

SABRINA LONGLEY: I'm not certified. I'm not like Linehan Institute certified, but I've done the, like, foundational training.

PATRICK CASALE: Got it. I know DBT and all the modalities out there in the world. Like, you have to stay within the boxes sometimes, which is fascinating to me. But I love how you bring in dialectics into everything. And you're going to kind of talk about what that means for you and what that means in general.

So, where do you want to start? You pitched me on two ideas, dialectics, and employee/employer perspective about a lot of different things. So, I'm going to just let you take over. And also, fill in the gaps of anything I missed in your very, very, very, very limited bio.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Yeah, no worries. I did like how you seemed a little, like, surprised that I work for you. Like, the way that you said that was a little like, "You work for me?" But I do, I do work for you.

And, yeah, I would call myself a DBT therapist. I do a lot of, like, full-model DBT right now. But I actually was introduced to DBT as a client when I was 19. And so, I did like adolescent parent DBT. So, I did it with my mother.

And I don't know if I fell in love with it immediately, but I liked it enough that I then focused a lot of my undergrad studies on it. And I find it to be the most effective lens for me to like, move through the world as someone who experiences really big emotions and who is a lot, in a lot of different ways, but it actually is one of the things that drives my confidence, because I use it in a lot of different ways to say, like, I get to be me. And if there are people who don't love that, that's okay, and I have to trust that they'll let me know that.

And that's actually my favorite thing about you, is that you will also let me know. I talk about frequently how I never fear for my job. I don't worry that, like, it's going to be out of the blue [INDISCERNIBLE 00:04:10]. If you start having issues with the way that I'm working for you, I know for a fact that you'll be in my inbox like, "Hey, can we chat? Like, what's happening?"

PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:04:21] Sabrina, just so everyone knows.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Yeah, exactly. And so, I think that, like, a lot of that kind of confidence to be myself comes from that DBT lens. And then, also, I had four jobs within, like, two and a half years out of grad school, two and a half, three.

And so, I just kind of kept landing in places that, like, weren't the greatest fit for me in a lot of different ways, I think. And DBT helped me to continually frame that as, like, just not a good fit, and not like, I'm a bad person, or they're bad people, just that, like, we don't fit each other well, which I think was really helpful.

Then when I transitioned into this, I'm like, "Oh, this is the fit. This is exactly like what people talk about when they say, like, you know, love what you do, and you won't work a day in your life." Whatever, which I don't fully ascribe to, but I think that like parts of that live within, like, the way that my clients fit me super well, and that, like, I feel like I have tons of support when I need it.

I've never, like, posted into our group chat, we've got like a staff group chat, and I'm like, "Hey, I need, I need some help with something." And not gotten, like, multiple replies and like offers for consultation within the same day. Like, our group is just really, really supportive, and that's the kind of interaction that I need. I was telling them in consultation last week, like, I'm violently extroverted. I'm a super, super like [CROSSTALK 00:05:52]-

PATRICK CASALE: I would agree with that.

SABRINA LONGLEY: …person. And so, like, that level of support is kind of what I need, and I have found it well here.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, I appreciate you saying that. And although, I don't want this episode to be like, "Hey, come work at Resilient Mind Counseling." Unless you are a cool fucking person, then you can shoot me a message, and I probably will never read it, because we have a lot of emails right now from applicants. I think it's important for all people to feel like they can find that right fit if you do not, in fact, want to start your own business, because so often right? Like, I think about it even as a group practice owner, why are people working here? Like, why are people working for me, when in reality, I offer coaching/consultation on how to start your own business. I have all these resources for how to do that. And it would feel really hypocritical for me to do anything differently to say like, "No, you can't start your business because you work here."

So, I get that people want community. I get that people want support. But I also know that a lot of people out there as owners of practices are definitely not practicing what they preach. And I've done a lot of consultation with group practice owners where I'm like, "No fucking shit." Like, I completely understand why you can't retain staff because of A, B, C, D, E. And that's not a reflection on you, if you're listening and you feel a little certain sort of way right now, but it is the reality of like, I also acknowledge, though, that All Things Private Practice and the success that it's had has allowed me to create a culture, and a fit, and a environment that isn't typical.

So, there is that that I always have to keep in mind, too, for a lot of people who are employers, who might be a single parent, might be a sole provider, who don't have other sources of revenue. I get that they can't do certain things that we can do. So, I always try to keep that in perspective as well.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Yeah, and I think, like, one thing that I realized early on that I really, really like about working in your practice, because, and that was part of why I added to my very limited bio, is that, like, I don't have any desire to run my own business in terms of, like, a therapy business. I don't want to start my own private practice. I plan to work for you until you literally, like, come to my house and, like, take my computer away from me, and don't let me work for you anymore. And that's a four-hour drive, my friend. Like, you got to be dedicated to kicking me out of your practice.

And a big part of that. I've known really the whole time that I've been practicing is that I don't really have a business brain. I hate talking about money. It stresses me out to the extreme. I like, know that I need a structure. Because, like, I mean, you can always find other therapists, and supports, and like all of that, right? Like, if you're a solo private practice person, but for me, it's a lot of the benefits of not having to, like, track people down and collect things. And if I'm confused about something monetarily, I can send people to our wonderful admin team. Like, all of that kind of stuff.

And I think that I've always really valued, like, the practice owner has a big, big responsibility. You've got to run the business side. You have to be at least somewhat business-oriented, or I don't have a job anymore, and that matters to me.

And like, that's a big pressure that I don't want on myself. And also that, I think, like if that balance and this is where dialectics comes in, yeah, if that balance right, which is like, kind of holding multiple truths at once, both the practice needs to make money and that we need to care for our clients, and that, like capitalism and care don't always get to line up well, if we can't find that, like, middle path, then it's really, really clear, right? I have seen that flip, that, like switch flip in practice owners, online, like, all these things. And it's really, really like, disconcerting for a lot of employees, right?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Especially, because so many employees are associate licensed and are waiting until they're fully licensed to start their own practice, and they're kind of a little bit biding their time and things like that, which I think is fine. Though, I also know practice owners have issues within their own right.

And so, I think, like, it's a big ask that we have of our employers to hold both of those things, but also, like, it's so necessary. But people, I think, sometimes really struggle with, like, "Okay, well, I'm the only one thinking of the business, and so we need to, like, always offer virtual so that we can charge them when they say no."

PATRICK CASALE: Right.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Like, these little like, punitive money-based thoughts that start running things more so than like, how can we collaboratively work to create a system that, like, we can keep paying people and we can keep supporting people when they have things come up in their lives, like, and support our clients while not like running out of money.

And I do think that the way that you do it to have, like, other businesses that can help make sure that you're not so money anxious about your own income and making sure that we all have everything that we need, I think that that likely gives you a better headspace to hold that like [INDISCERNIBLE 00:11:09] path.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I completely agree with everything you just said. And I think that this is such a unique perspective for this podcast, considering this is, like, typically an entrepreneurial focus podcast, so I like hearing I don't want to do those things, like, because you're not the only person out there that is feeling like I really need a container, like I really need structure, and some accountability, and support, and I don't want to deal with all the other things, regardless of what the messaging is on social media, which is typically like, "Start your own business. Let's make X amount of money. Let's go, like-

SABRINA LONGLEY: [CROSSTALK 00:11:49]-

PATRICK CASALE: ...feet on the sand. Yeah, and it can misconstrue the realities that a lot of people experience. And I think for a lot of neurodivergent humans, especially, those with any intersectionality in terms of marginalized identity, having a safe container is super important, and having a structure to work within, and some, like, understanding of like, here's the expectation, I work within it, and then I go home. And I don't have to fucking worry about anything.

And I always wanted to create that for people who do work for us, because, like, even when the hurricane hit, as devastating as it was for western North Carolina and in general, I was racking my brain of like, "How can I ensure that my clinicians are safe, cared for and supported? And am I willing to cut my salary in half to do it? Am I willing to freeze my salary." And the answer was always yes. But the answer can only be yes If money is coming from elsewhere. And so, I think it's a unique perspective to have this infrastructure in place.

But the dialectic piece is important, because I think you're right, like having some ability to have accountability, and for you to come to me and say, like, "Hey, this is bothering me." Or, "Hey, I don't like the way that this is happening or this new idea." I think you need to build safety and trust in any… because there's a power dynamic here, right? Like, I am a cishet white man, and I am the owner of the practice. So, there is a power dynamic here as even employer/employee.

So, I think it's just fascinating that you, one, I totally appreciate how much you appreciate what we have. And two, it feels like it's a no-brainer to me, like I've never thought about it any differently. So, I don't know if that's just my own autistic brain being like this is just how you should do things. But, yeah, it's just a fascinating perspective, and I appreciate you sharing it.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Yeah, I saw, I think, it was a TikTok with a reel which most of those are TikToks anyway, someone was talking about how imposter syndrome is like scarcity mindset from the past, right? It's like, if you grew up and you really didn't have a lot of like this or that, it can sometimes, like, present itself as imposter syndrome. And I think that, like, I saw that, and I immediately thought of like, so many practice owners that I see online and in these different spaces talking about like it's super scary to, like, be the end all be all. It's super scary to have to be the one to make the decision of, do I take on an extra client right now? I make that decision for me and for my family, but also, like, I know that my practice will keep going and I will keep getting paychecks, and I won't be able to be stable, even if I, like, only see 22 people in a week, right? Or if I see 26, right?

Like, our caseload expectation is 24 and I saw 26 last week. But I saw 22 the week before, so, like, it comes out [INDISCERNIBLE 00:14:55] to me. And also, and just as, like, kind of a tandem, ADHD, I think part of that is also that that felt fine to me because I work four days a week, so the two extra people were just on Monday when I didn't have other things that I needed to get done, and my two clients really did need to be seen. And that, like it didn't stretch me too thin, partially, because I feel very, very stable in a lot of other ways, right? I'm not at the brink of burnout. I'm not, like, coming home and crashing immediately. Like, I come home and I've got energy and these types of things.

And I think that really does come back to, you're not super, super, like, at least outwardly anxious about, like, oh my gosh, the practice is going to go under, if we're not all hitting our numbers dah, dah, dah. And it doesn't trickle down into me that way. So, I feel stable, because you're able to feel stable.

And I think that that's what I've noticed, is that scarcity mindset, and that possibly imposter syndrome is like, what am I even doing like building a practice and having employees? And I think that that's coming, and either working with coming from something is related to the scarcity mindset that we know isn't real. There are enough clients. Are there enough clients to pay $300 private pay rates. That one, I can't tell you. And at the same time, right? There are enough clients, and we can fill up our caseloads, and we can see people, and we can build community, and we can refer out to other people when we don't have the in house support.

And all of this matters, but when you're super, super anxious because the money is not coming in, and you've grown too quickly, or you're growing but you're not exactly sure where you're going, or it's the summer and everyone is, you know, like, not depressed anymore, because the sun exists again, I think that that anxiety trickles down in really, really big ways and really impactful ways. And I could always tell when, like, in other jobs that I've had, or, like, talking to my friends who are therapists and things like that, we can always tell what things are going on upstairs, and especially, when those things aren't being talked about openly.

So, I think the other part is, like, when Helene hit, you were really upfront. "Hey, you all. We had just had a staff meeting, but like, numbers were not tight anyway." On that Monday, literally, that Monday, that was when we had that staff meeting, and then Helene hit. And you and leadership were really upfront about, like, "Here's what's happening, here's how we're planning to handle it for now. We also can't guarantee you things down the road, but like, this is what we're doing so far."

And I feel like that level-headedness, that like management of your own anxiety in your own place, and then coming to us with like, "Hey, I recognize that I'm in leadership and that, like, you need me to be the stabilizer, and so that's what I'm offering you." Not that you can't have your feelings and your anxieties, but like that, like some of those are yours over there, and some are to share here in community. I think that that is really what gives me, like, the faith and the like, "Oh, this is like, a really, really solid business situation."

SABRINA LONGLEY: I appreciate you saying that. Helene was hard because that really was a moment where you're like, "What do I do?" Because, you know, staff being traumatized, staff feeling unsafe, no running water, no electricity, no internet, no power, no cell service, and then, just [CROSSTALK 00:18:18]-

SABRINA LONGLEY: [CROSSTALK 00:18:18] we were waiting for people just to check in for like signs of life. Like, we got really lucky, and all of our folks were safe, physically, but like, I remember, like, me sitting in Raleigh, I was terrified. I can't imagine how you felt, like inside of it yourself and waiting.

PATRICK CASALE: We didn't have cell phone service for five days here, so you know, once we finally were able to get online, I check, like, the Spruce chat, I see all of these missed calls, all of these messages., people are freaking out. Like, "Are people in Western North Carolina okay?" And nobody's answering, obviously, because we can't. And it was just really horrifying.

And then you're also experiencing like, grief and community devastation. So, every day we drive around here, and it's like a constant reminder of the fact that this feels like years ago and this happened four months ago. It's fucking wild.

But, you know, I think having the ability to have transparency, is what one thing that I think some entities and practices do not do a good job of. And the reason I think we do a good job is because there's not only transparency about the money, about the decisions, but I also think it's about vulnerability and accountability in leadership. Like, I have to be able to say, like, this is what I'm experiencing, and this is how it's impacting your livelihoods. Because I think there's a duality there.

And I think too many people shy away from feedback. They shy away from asking hard questions. And then, things build, right? Whether it's resentment on the staff side, or on the leaderships, or vice versa, or all together. And it's just like, just have transparent conversations from the staff. And be accountable in all the ways. And I think that creates like cohesion, and synergy, and buy-in to a collective mentality.

But so, I want to circle back to something you said, imposter syndrome, scarcity mindset. I'm of the belief, and I'm sure you are too, just knowing who you are and how you think, that imposter syndrome for a lot of people, especially, BIPOC people, is colonialism. And essentially, like, okay, if I don't feel good enough, or I don't feel worthy enough, or I don't feel like I have earned the seat at the table, it's mainly because, like, white people have made it that way. I mean, it's-

SABRINA LONGLEY: [CROSSTALK 00:20:40] you don't deserve a seat at the table. [CROSSTALK 00:20:43]-

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly. So, I think, like, you know, when I think of imposter syndrome stuff, I'm curious about the dialectics there when you're thinking about it from your own perspective.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Yeah. So, I think that there's so many things. And I live in a fat body. I live in a disabled body. I live in a neurodivergent body. I live in a black body. I live in a light-skinned body. I live, you know, in a cis body. I live in a female body. Like, I live in so many intersections of things existing. And like dialectics makes that easier to live inside of, because it's not only one of those things that is ever impacting how people engage with me, right?

I am both big, black, and loud, and that is something that people have a really hard time with. I am constantly full of questions, and my ADHD doesn't really let me hold them well. I think often like, "Hey, just wait. Give other people a chance to talk, and then you can circle back around." But my ADHD goes, "Oh, no one else is talking for three seconds. Let me go ahead and get my question in."

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, because you don't want to forget what you're going to ask.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Exactly. And I remember really early on I was, like, kind of engaging, but I was trying to be really mindful in the Spruce chat not to, like, just spam and always be the one to respond first. But I'm a little chronically online, and so like, I tended to find myself. And you, were like, "Hey, like, how are things going?" And I was like, "It's going well. Like, I'm trying to, like, be mindful and not, like, overstepping." You're like, "Be your fucking self. Like, have that, right? And if it's a problem, then people will bring it up, right?" And that can be on them.

And that made me feel like, really, really good. And I think that that is not something that I get in a lot of spaces, right? In a lot of spaces, my questions are seen as combative. And this idea of like, "You think you know how to run my practice better than me." No, baby, I want your practice to work so fucking well.

I hate changing jobs. Last year between my partner and I, we had 7 W-2s. I changed jobs three times because they had a weird summer job. They had 4 W-2s. I had three. I hate it. I cannot stand making my clients move. My clients are wonderful, and they move with me. But like making my clients move, changing offices, I don't like change in general. Like, it's a huge pain in the ass. So, I want your practice to do fantastic. My main goal is that your practice does so well that I never have to worry about it.

And I do have ideas, and I do have thoughts, and I've worked hard to feel that I'm worthy of listening to. And so, it's really dysregulating for me to, like, kind of live in a world where I'm getting a different message, right? Like, I was adopted by white people, and I lived in a pretty predominantly white area. Lived in Chapel Hill growing up. And I was also adopted by lesbians and so, like, there was, like, that kind of social thing going on. And like, all of these different things were happening. And it took me a really long time to find my voice and to figure out, like, between going to an HBCU for undergrad, I went to Central. And like, really being surrounded by my culture and blackness. And like, feeling that sense of community. And really doing a lot of work to like, "Yeah, bitch, I'm big."

Like, I'm big and I was a head taller. I recently found pictures of myself from like third grade. I'm a head taller. And like, I look like, that little thing on, like, picture editing things where you move the whole picture bigger, instead of just, like, taller. No, like it was, you know, corners out bigger than everybody in the room. And I got a lot of flack for that. I had a lot of kids who used to act like I was violent. I'm not violent. I'm, like, actively kind of afraid of violence, but they would act like that because I was so much bigger, and I'm black and, like, all of those things. And it took me really long time to realize that I don't have to play into what the fuck they're acting like I am, and I don't have to act like they think that I will, and I get to be me regardless.

And so, now that I'm there, it's really hard for me to push it back in. And I'm not willing to do that for eight hours of my day. And I'm not willing to do that when I'm sitting here and talking. Primarily, my clients would tell you that, like the number one thing I'm kind of always on is like that authenticity shit. We can't build relationships. We can't live a life that is inauthentic, because it will drag you to the depths of hell, and it's so hard to maintain. And at some point, you're going to pop off.

And so, I think that, like living at these many intersections has made it actually essential that I keep doing me, but that is still really hard, and it has made it hard to find my therapeutic home, right? You know, like pitchy freeze, but like, it's made it really hard because there aren't a lot of people who can tolerate the fact that I'm going to ask questions, I'm going to put my ideas forward. I think that I have decent ideas, but I'm not a business person, so I'm going to bring them to you, because you're the business person. I'm going to let you know if something that you're asking me to do doesn't work from a boots-on-the-ground perspective. You know, like, I want us to be in dialog, because I want your business to run well, and you want your business to run well, but like, I am running your business, right? I'm not running to start my little section of your business. And so, I think that we're supposed to be in relationship in order to do that. And not everyone necessarily holds that idea.

PATRICK CASALE: That was really well said. Couple of mic drop moments in that too. And I think it's so great to hear like I am going to embrace who I am. I'm going to find my voice. And I'm going to use my voice.

As someone, you know, on the opposite end of a lot of privilege, for a lot of reasons, I've been small for so long that finding my voice has been so important for me. And like you said, being unwilling to, like, not use it anymore, people keep messaging me about how outspoken I've been about what's happening in our country, and are like, "This is really upsetting." Or, "You shouldn't say this." And, "Aren't you worried?"

But I don't understand the point of having privilege and platform if you're not going to use it. Like, I think now is the time to do that. So, I think finding your voice is crucial. I've done a lot of talks on here about finding your voice. As someone who had my voice completely impacted by surgery, like, it's a weird mind fuck in a lot of ways, of realizing how important what you have to say is, and how you show up, and just being your authentic self, right? Like, we get that as neurodivergent humans, we're like, "Of course, we want authenticity." But I also understand that, like, not everyone can live that way.

So, I give you a lot of credit for just being like, "This is who I am. I'm going to take up space, I'm going to show up. And I'm going to be consistently, authentically me." Because that's a huge deal. It's quite liberating to live that way. Doing a TEDx on this next week, which I just cannot [INDISCERNIBLE 00:29:54]-

SABRINA LONGLEY: Come t[INDISCERNIBLE 00:29:55].

PATRICK CASALE: So, yeah. I really applaud you for that. I think, you know, I remember interviewing you and being like, "Damn. Yeah. Of course, this is a hell yes." I think I even said that in the interview. Like, yeah, I always interview go with my gut, yeah, if you want the job. And you were like [CROSSTALK 00:30:12]-

SABRINA LONGLEY: [CROSSTALK 00:30:12] what do you want to know from me? Because you already got it, it's yours.

PATRICK CASALE: And you were like, "Well, I have some other offers, and I have to think about this opportunity." So, to put you on the spot, did you have other offers? And did you have to think about it?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I had a couple other offers. One of them from a person that I really respect who actually, like, followed up and asked me like, "Hey, why are you not taking, like, my job? You're the that kind of clinician that I want." And I loved that she did that. I thought that was wonderful.

And essentially, it literally just came down to she was a really small practice, and I'm the, like, main breadwinner in my family. And so, like, there are financial needs that I have to be able to meet, but it came down to that with that one. It might have come down to other things, I don't know, but like, that was kind of a rule out.

And then, I had another offer. To be really out front, I had heard some things about my other offer that I was like, okay, like, from, like, trusted sources that I was like, "I can't figure out what this all means, and I need to make my moves so." And then, just when I was going around saying, "Oh yeah, I'm interviewing at Resilient Mind…" People were like, "Oh with Patrick?" Like, "Oh, yeah, no, that's going to be great. Like, good luck. I hope your interview goes well." And so, I was like, okay like, just some word of mouth.

And I think the other part was that I was, so I did have those offers, and I really did think between you two, and I looked at kind of like, finances and benefits, and all those things. But a lot of it did come down to, like, A, I'm okay to, like, pick up and move again. Like, I don't want to, but, like, I will. I know that I will land somewhere. I know that I'm good at my job, and then I'll find a way to support people. And if I really fucking have to, I will make my own private practice.

And so, I was okay, like, if nothing else, I will try here, and if things go off hold, and I, you know, will reach back out to these people, and I'll try them again. But I did definitely have other offers.

PATRICK CASALE: Okay. I was like, you know, there are people when you meet them, you know, Chantelle was one of those people. I met her, and immediately was like, "I need this person to work for me." Like, I just know that. And apparently, with Chantelle, if she ever listens to this episode, my job offers and my messages were going to spam. I just think Chantelle, if you're listening, sucks at communication via electronic options. So, I was like, "Oh my God. I thought that interview went so well. like, and now she's ghosting me that that sucks."

And then, I heard from her, like, three weeks later. And she was like, "Oh, I found all these in my spam folder." And I was like, "Oh, okay, cool. Like, do you still want the job?" But yeah, nevertheless, always doing things instinctually.

And if Cindy Miller ever listens to this, she's played a big role in that by, like, constantly reinforcing with her love for human design and me being a generator. She's like your energy is sacral energy. You need to go with your gut. You need to trust your instincts more, and that's how you need to move through the world. So, I've tried to embrace that with everything. So, yeah, I'm glad that you thought it over and said, yes.

Okay, are there things that we haven't touched upon, I feel like we've diverged all over, which makes a lot of sense.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Can I, like, move us back to something?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

SABRINA LONGLEY: My brain is not grabbing onto all of it. This Is that, "Why you got to interrupt people so you can just get in there?" But you were talking earlier about, like, the idea of finding your voice and like, all these things. I think the other part is like, again, from employee to employers, right? Like, if you're looking to, like, have employees, and retention, and all that kind of stuff. Like, it takes a lot of work to find your voice. I have been in therapy since, from the earliest records that I can find, since I was like four as an adopted kid. That's kind of what they shuffle you into pretty quickly.

And I often will think of myself as essentially, like, raised by therapists. Like, I often hear, I had a therapist for about 15 years from like, middle school to, like, early 20s. And I often, like, think of like, okay if I asked her right now, like, what should I do? Like, this is, okay, I feel confident in going through with this now? Because I know what she would tell me. I know how we would talk this through. And I'm still in therapy to this day. And I love my therapist.

And I think, like, it took me a really long time to figure out those things, and I think it's really important to also learn how to hear it back, right? To hear questions not as criticism, to hear criticism as like, "Hey, like, I have concerns about how this is working." Or, you know, to be able to process those things as not you're a bad boss and I'm going to quit, but as, like, we're both here for this business to work well, right? I really, actually know anyone in my life who really wants to job hop all the time, right? And especially, in our field, when it is possible to go and be your own boss, people who are working for a group practice, I hope, are primarily doing that because they want to.

And so, like, I think it's important to both acknowledge that your employee, if they're coming to you with something, probably, worked really hard to be able to find their voice, and that, like, it will take effort on your part most likely to be able to take that feedback. And, like, if you need to sit with it for a while, like, do the thing that you need to do so that you're viewing your employee. Like, I talk to my clients and my teenagers, all stuff about, like, assumption of neutral or positive intent. If we can come to people that we're in relationship with, not just like every random off the street, but at least the people that we're in relationship with. You like this person enough to hire them. You like this person enough to, like, give one of your slots to pay for their EHR and to pay for their health insurance. Like, you like this person out to do this. Why are we assuming negative intent off [INDISCERNIBLE 00:36:12]-

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

SABRINA LONGLEY: And how did we get here? What happened to breach the relationship like this? And why was it not you that went to them and said, "Hey, something's happened in the relationship to breach." Because that is your job as the boss, right?

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

SABRINA LONGLEY: I'm trying to think that like I have felt like I didn't have bosses that felt that sense of responsibility on their end, and it only felt more hostile, because it didn't feel like I could bring it up. So, I think, like, again, recognizing that it probably took your employee a lot of work to get there, and also doing your own work to be able to hear it effectively.

PATRICK CASALE: Oh, well said, and super important. Anytime I've done a talk at a summit, or a conference, or a retreat for leadership, specifically, the things I talk about elicit a lot of emotional response a lot of the time, and people internalize it. And there's projection of like and that insecurity surfaces, or that imposter syndrome surfaces.

And I've had to do a lot of work as a leader. And I've been a leader in all areas of my life, my entire life. Some by people pleasing, for personality at some points of time, but some at just being naturally good at it. You do have to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. Like, you have to be able to receive feedback as a leader. You have to be able to hear your employees, or your support staff, or whoever is involved in your business, because, again, going back to your point, they're making your business run so it would be very easy if you hadn't done the work to take it all very personally and to like internalize it, and to sit with it, and get kind of resentful about it.

So, I think there has to be that dialectic. And I think there has to be a lot of work done. If you are in a position of leadership, you're going to have to do some work to be able to understand that not everything that comes your way is negative or critical. But in reality, like you said, if your employees are coming to you, that means they worked really fucking hard to get to that point, because there's a lot of anxiety.

I know for me going back to community mental health days, it took me so much to go into my boss's office to bring anything up that was of a concern to me, whether it was my staff's concern, my own concern, even when I put my 90-day notice in to quit that fucking job, it took so much to go into that office and knock on that door. So, I think that is a really, really great point, and I appreciate you making that.

SABRINA LONGLEY: [CROSSTALK 00:38:40]. Oh, sorry.

PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead.

SABRINA LONGLEY: I just want to say and to be mindful too, that like externals don't always reflect internals, right? So, for example, I was super anxious for this interview. I have had anxiety my whole life, or as much of it as like don't remember. My mother never believed that I was anxious because I'm very, very extroverted. And that extroversion often will, like, overtake, but it's the leading up to, right? Once I'm in a situation, I can talk. Oh, I can talk. And I can, like, be in a space, and I can, you know, like, make friends, or acquaintances, or at least someone to like, be there and joke with, very easily. And I deal with a lot of anxiety leading up to and after situations.

And so, like, in that same way, I think to a lot of employers, I can come off as, "Oh yeah, she's, like, on it. She knows what she's doing. She's even doing a lot." Like, she's, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever.

But a lot of times, A, some of that is coming from anxiety, and B, that, like, a lot of it is coming from excitement. Another way into, like, being big and black and loud has affected me is that people take my excitement as like anger. Very, very often. People will be like, "Hey, calm down. Everything's okay." I'm like, "I'm fine. I'm just hyper. Like, I'm excited. This matters to me."

And people like read that very often as like distress, anger, overwhelm, like these different things, but they're not asking me that, they're not checking on how I'm doing. Instead, they're making their assumption, and they're running with it. And again, like the assumption of negative intent. They're like, "Oh, like she's talking so much in the staff meeting. Like, something must be wrong." No, in fact, if I'm not talking at all in a staff meeting, it is maybe more of the time to check on me, you know?

But like, I think a lot of times it's recognizing that what you're seeing externally isn't always going to be exactly what they're feeling. And so, it is also important to come in and just be like, "Hey, I noticed you were, like, talking really fast and, like, pretty loudly about this thing at staff community. How are you feeling about it?" Like, no assumptions, just how are you feeling? "Oh, yeah, I'm super excited. I think this is going to be great. Like, I'm really excited part of this team. I really want to do this." Or, like, "I don't know, I'm super anxious about it."

Like, whatever they tell you, believe them, right? But start with opening the conversation, as opposed to just like, "Man, she was really loud and [INDISCERNIBLE 00:40:57] today. I don't know, that's got to be weird. Something weird is going on." And then, just sit with that and holding it back.

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. I think that's an important point too. Like, for those of you who are in leadership positions, like, you cannot take a one size fits all approach. So, like, if Sabrina is really quiet and I know Sabrina, I'm going to kind of know in my head I need to check in on her. Or if someone else is kind of really loud, or animated, or really excited, and they're not typically that way, I'm going to check in on it because I think it's important to pay attention to what's happening, because that's like the minutia of everything, that's kind of foundationally everything.

And I do a lot of one-on-one check-ins because I think it's important. I think it's important to stay in contact and in relationship. And I think for everyone listening, I think that that's a big part of this too.

We are wrapping this up, so I'm going to put you on the spot. You did a great job, first of all, just name that. You can be as anxious as you want when you get off of here. But I really want you to kind of try to promote yourself and the stuff that you want to be doing in terms of consultation, because you're really fucking good at it, and I just need you to own it a little bit so that the next time you go on a podcast, your bio is maybe more than one line.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Okay, fair enough. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm a therapist, but I'm pretty full right now. But for therapists, I offer consultation and trainings. So, I've got a training that I do on… it's actually a mixture of, like, some foundational pieces of dialectical behavior therapy. It's not foundational training, but it's like fundamentals and borderline personality disorder, because I think that it's really important to teach them kind of at the same time, because of how much stigma that there is around borderline.

I also train on supporting teenagers, I've done that for a really long time, supporting folks who are queer, folks who are neurodivergent, specifically, like autism, ADHD, as well as borderline personality disorder. Yeah, a whole lot of things that I train on.

And then, also my partner and I, my partner is an early childhood educator, and my partner and I are starting up a podcast, and it is called Words Mean Things, and you can follow it on Facebook already, but there's nothing there yet. We're planning to launch it after our move, but there's going to be exciting little updates and things posted there. So, you can follow along as we get set up for that.

PATRICK CASALE: Awesome. Well, send me the link for that so I can follow along. And we will also put that in the show notes, so that everyone has access to that as well. And we will put in the show notes a way that you can connect with Sabrina, so that if you do need consultation for yourself or for your team, you can reach directly out to her about that opportunity.

Just want to say thank you for coming on and being vulnerable in a setting like this. Like, I think it's always a vulnerability when you're putting yourself out there, probably more so when you're doing it with your boss.

SABRINA LONGLEY: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:44:17].

PATRICK CASALE: So, you know, it was a cool episode, and I liked where it went. We went longer than 30 minutes, which is usually a sign that it was a good episode, in my opinion. So, thank you very much for just coming on and making the time.

SABRINA LONGLEY: Thanks for having me.

PATRICK CASALE: To everyone listening to All Things Private Practice, new episodes are out on Saturdays on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. We'll see you next week.