Show Notes

In this episode, Patrick Casale talks with Chris and Daisy Chavers, an incredibly talented husband-and-wife duo behind Red Rabbit Tattoo, whose journey epitomizes what it means to persevere through a catastrophic disaster.

From losing their Asheville tattoo shop to Hurricane Helene, to reestablishing roots in Savannah and boldly diversifying their business, Chris and Daisy’s story is a testament to the grit behind small business ownership.

Here are 3 key takeaways:

1. Adaptability Isn’t Optional—It’s Survival: Catastrophic setbacks, like natural disasters, don’t just affect businesses—they impact entire communities and personal identities. Surviving as small business owners—and eventually thriving—requires creativity, quick pivots, and a willingness to experiment with new income streams.
2. The Entrepreneurial Journey is Unpredictable and Vulnerable: Daisy’s leap from tattooing to writing, and Chris’s foray into new ventures, highlight the importance of allowing yourself to evolve. Embracing vulnerability can unlock authentic creativity—and new opportunities you never expected.
3. Community and Connection Are Foundations for Recovery: Even in moments of loss, leaning on your network and focusing on relationships with clients, peers, and loved ones is critical. Collective resilience carries us further than going it alone.

More about Chris and Daisy:

Chris and Daisy Chavers are a husband-and-wife duo with deep roots in the tattooing world. Chris brings decades of experience to the craft, known for his precision, bold style, and deep commitment to the art of tattooing. Daisy specializes in delicate florals, fine line work, and cosmetic and paramedical tattooing, offering everything from scar camouflage to restorative procedures.

Together, they have built a reputation for excellence, creativity, and care in every piece of work they do. Now, Daisy is expanding her creative expression beyond the tattoo studio and into the world of writing. Her latest venture blends humor, heart, and hard-won wisdom—offering stories that connect, heal, and inspire.

• Instagram: @chrischavers @msdaisyink
• Red Rabbit Tattoo: Redrabbittattoo.com
• Daisy's Books and Tattoos: msdaisyink.com
• Coloring Books: pickletrainpress.com

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the All Things Private Practice podcast, joined today by my good friends, Chris and Daisy Chavers. They are a husband and wife duo with deep roots in the tattooing world.

Chris brings decades of experience to the craft, known for his precision, bold style, and deep commitment to the art of tattooing. Daisy specializes in delicate florals, fine line work, and cosmetic and paramedical tattooing, offering everything from scar camouflage to restorative procedures.

Together, they have built a reputation for excellence, creativity, and care in every piece of work that they do. Daisy is now expanding her creative expression beyond the tattoo studio and into the world of writing. Her latest venture blends humor and heart-won wisdom, offering stories that connect, heal, and inspire.

They are the co-owners of Red Rabbit Tattoo. And if you see my tattoos on the podcast or you're one of the people who sometimes comes up to me in general public and says, "I'm just trying to see if I can match your tattoos to your body from your profile picture." Which isn't creepy at all, but they've done most of them.

So, the reason that I have tattoo artists on this podcast today is because, you know, this is mostly an entrepreneurial podcast. And I think you guys are the epitome of being entrepreneurs, because you've owned small businesses for most of your life, especially while you two have been together. And I want to just disclaim that we're going to talk about some hard stuff today, because Chris and Daisy lived in Asheville, had a business here, and Hurricane Helene really threw a wrench into those plans and destroyed a lot of what was physically standing. So, I think having a conversation about how the hell do we regroup, pivot, and adapt after experiencing a once-in-a-lifetime, unexpected, chaotic event?

So, thanks for being on here. I want to start with just kind of filling in the gaps a little bit. Tell the audience, and you guys can figure out who's speaking. I know you're going to speak over each other, it's inevitable, just a little bit about the here and now and how we got here. So, the here and now, you live in Savannah, Georgia. You moved there to open up a second shop and split time between here and Asheville, that was the goal. Then what happens?

DAISY CHAVERS: So, that was going along pretty much as planned. We definitely weren't focusing on Savannah as much as we probably should have, but we had Asheville. So, we felt like we didn't have anything to worry about.

And it's been hard. It's been hard getting established in a new city. And when you've been successful for a long time, I think that you forget how hard it can be. And I think as you get older, it gets harder.

So, we were literally riding up to Asheville last September, having a conversation about, if this was so hard, maybe we weren't supposed to be in Savannah, and maybe we needed to go back to Asheville and just be comfortable again. And three days later, our shop got washed away.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

DAISY CHAVERS: So, you know, people start asking immediately, you know, a week after, days after, "What are you going to do? What are you going to do?" Like, you don't pivot from something that you had never even entertained the thought of.

PATRICK CASALE: No.

DAISY CHAVERS: You don't pivot from that quickly. You spend a certain amount of time in actual just denial. Then you sit there just almost, like, refusing to do anything because it wasn't supposed to happen, and it wasn't how you planned it. And, you know, you've got family and friends that are like, "Oh, but you know, you guys have no idea that something like this could happen." Well, yeah, that's the problem. But you do also sit feeling like you're somehow at fault for failing, also, which is really hard.

PATRICK CASALE: Majorly hard, survivor's guilt times a million, right? Like, because-

CHRIS CHAVERS: [CROSSTALK 00:05:22]-

PATRICK CASALE: Go ahead, Chris.

CHRIS CHAVERS: I mean, I just constantly think, you know, not only just about the physical aspect of having the studio, you know, that's whatever. I mean, for me, I constantly am thinking about, you know, half of our clientele, you know, instantly lost jobs, you know? And then, you know, and as of last month, you know, we're still hearing about another wave of people leaving Asheville because those jobs didn't come back. You know, that did stick around. And, you know, now they're having to broaden their horizons and pivot.

And you know that's hard. It's hard to, you know, say, "Please come get a tattoo." When they, you know, don't have jobs and haven't had jobs, and have just been piecing together anything they can for a long time.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, they're in survival mode, you're in survival mode. You need to rely on doing tattoo work to pay your bills. Yeah, most of your clientele who lived here is either moving away from the city, because for those of you who don't know, who are listening, or who knew very briefly in the blip of the news cycle, Asheville is still in shambles. Like, we have parts of it that are coming back, but this is a long fucking journey of rebuilding. And entire sections of western North Carolina were washed away in the blink of an eye.

And, you know, it's weird to talk about this now, but we're almost at a year, which it's wild. But I was standing on the bridge the day that the hurricane happened with about 200 other people. No cell phone service, or Wi-Fi, or ability to communicate, watching the French Broad River wash everything away in its path. And one of the things that I saw it wash away was your shop. And I thought to myself, one, holy shit, I hope they're not in there. Two-

CHRIS CHAVERS: And we almost were.

PATRICK CASALE: …I don't know if they know this is even happening, because we can't communicate. Three, I was just thinking about people's livelihoods being lost in the blink of an eye. The things that they worked so fucking hard for to watch, restaurants, bars, little art galleries, your tattoo shop, food trucks, just all flowing down the river in a matter of seconds.

CHRIS CHAVERS: People's homes, I mean…

DAISY CHAVERS: Well, you know, you wish that it was a business for… But a small business is a culmination of a life. Because everything that you're doing as an entrepreneur, and especially a very small business, it's little building blocks.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Yeah, it's not just the people that open the business, it's the people that really support the business. That's the small business.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. And you guys had put roots down here for almost a decade, building that community. And you know, it's a hard thing to conceptualize, because it's one of those things that never should have happened.

And I think, until someone lives through a climate disaster, because that's what it was, it's considered a once in 2000-year ecological event, you really don't have an understanding of how impactful it is and how traumatizing it is, collectively, to the community, because our news cycle moves so quickly that Asheville was on the news cycle for maybe a week or two weeks. And then, all of a sudden, we're on to the next thing, the next atrocity, the next tragedy, whatever's happening in this current iteration of America, and it just gets lost.

And I have so many people in my life who are like, "You guys are fine, right? Like everything's back to normal." And I'm like, "This is Hurricane Katrina level-esque, and we don't think we will ever be back to normal in our lifetimes."

CHRIS CHAVERS: But it's kind of amazing, well, you know, after the fact, you know, we remember we were in business, that we had a new business. When the towers fell, 911, you know, the 2008 financial crisis, I had cancer.

DAISY CHAVERS: Yeah, I mean, we had done-

CHRIS CHAVERS: COVID. How many more, you know, disasters can people go through? It's starting to wonder.

DAISY CHAVERS: But, you know, it's weird, because there's a lot of times like things happen to you. But they happen to you, and so you sort through. But when it is an entire community, you can't get over that as quickly as you would something that just personally happened to you.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Yeah, everyone is affected in some way.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And there's ripple effects from that. And, like, there will be impact for generations here. And to people who moved away, who were directly or somewhat directly impacted.

So, that brings me to the pivot place, right? Because Daisy alluded to the fact, like, how do you pivot from this? Like, how the hell do you pick up the pieces? And I guess for you two at this stage, like, this becomes the next iteration in the chapter of like, what do we do next? Because you clearly are both unbelievably talented, but as human beings, we only have so much capacity to carry this, like, burden, and this load of, how do we restart and get our footing back underneath us?

DAISY CHAVERS: Depends on the day. I mean, there are days when I personally get up and I'm like, "What if I'm just done? Can I just be done? Can I opt out now?" Because it's very, very, very hard.

For a while, it almost felt like we were just plugging holes constantly, you know? And we were able to get a small loan to tide us over. And so, then you start, like, well, could we invest a little bit in business here? Could we improve that? You know, could I take a class here? But it all just feels like a knee-jerk, panicked reaction to just manage to stay afloat. It doesn't feel intentional. It hasn't felt intentional for a year.

PATRICK CASALE: Right. How could it? And the reality is that some of the trauma that we experience in events like this, this just doesn't, like, go away. It's stored in your body. It's stored in your nervous system. A lot of us are still kind of in this dissociated, like, how the hell did that happen? Trying to grapple and come to terms with it. People lost their homes, their lives, their businesses, their everything, right? So, it's real.

And then, if you're here, you almost have that survivor's guilt of, "But, you know, I'm okay in these ways." Or, "I've survived this and this and that." And it's just really a mind fuck.

So, Chris, I know you've been, like, trying to be as creative as you can in order to figure out, like, how do I continue to bring money in? So, I know one thing y'all do is you come to Asheville once a month for about a week and you tattoo. But I also understand that a lot of your clientele has left the area because of a lot of different factors, or the economy is playing a big role as well.

CHRIS CHAVERS: I mean, I think half of it is the economy and half of it is, you know, the hurricane. And it's scary, you know? Like, it's from being a very sought-after person a few years ago to the hurricane and the economy kind of happening, really, at the same time. You know, I went from being booked for just months and months and months to, you know, sure, I'll do, you know, your whatever Pinterest tattoo, because I've got a bill to pay, you know? I don't really ever care. I mean, especially for my clientele, I'll do whatever. But you know, it's like, you know, I just want to start a restaurant, guy, chef, going and making a hot dog at a hot dog cart, you know?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, well, you lose the passion for it, right? It's like, this is no longer lighting me up, and this is not my dream job. This is more like survival and necessity.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And those are very different things.

CHRIS CHAVERS: And really, even, like, before even the hurricane, we started being like, we need to really start diversifying our income, you know, even just being here in Savannah for the three weeks we are, you know, our friend down the street, you know, helped us get our boat captain's license, and we started, you know, running some tours and stuff like that. And we are still so thankful for that opportunity, you know, to have diversified income that's not just tattooing.

DAISY CHAVERS: Yeah. I mean, we intended for that to kind of be… We called it our mental health job, because we're like, you know, we could just get out a few hours a week into nature. It feels so restorative, good. Then, like, whatever we make from that, let's put it in a retirement, you know, account, whatever.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Last month [INDISCERNIBLE 00:14:51].

PATRICK CASALE: Right, yeah. [CROSSTALK 00:14:54]-

CHRIS CHAVERS: [CROSSTALK 00:14:54] so happy for it.

PATRICK CASALE: And that's one thing I want to highlight for those of you listening, who are entrepreneurial. Like, sometimes it is this roller coaster of emotions and just plugging the holes, like Daisy was saying, and figuring out all of the different ways to bring in revenue.

And I think one thing that scares a lot of people is like, for those of us who have gone into small business ownership because we wanted to, we wanted the freedom, the autonomy, the creativity, we didn't want to punch a clock, we do give up certain elements of security for that. Certain elements like retirement, certain elements like health insurance, for the most part. Like, there are a lot of trade-offs here to create this lifestyle where we have more autonomy and independence. And when something catastrophic happens, it's like, "Holy fuck, do I go back to something that I'm going to hate, but is going to give me some semblance of peace of mind?"

CHRIS CHAVERS: Yeah.

DAISY CHAVERS: One for us, like, we've been out of the workforce for so long that it really does not feel like there is a place for us to go.

CHRIS CHAVERS: For sure. I mean, after the hurricane here in Savannah, I literally tried to go and get a job at five or six different tattoo shops here in Savannah, and no one would give me the time of day or call back. And you know, whatever the reason, you know? Whether they don't have the business, or they felt intimidated with someone with such experience. I don't know. You know, no one's ever going to be like, "No." You know, whatever.

PATRICK CASALE: I mean, I joke around a lot that I'm not employable anymore, and I don't think that I am, because I think when you own your own business for so long, you get used to doing things your way and being able to really have control over the situation.

CHRIS CHAVERS: I mean, I've always said I'm a better boss than I am an employee, because I treat everything like it's my business, you know? Like…

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Other employees don't do that.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. It's hard to get that collective buy-in a lot of the time, even if you're the best boss in the world.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: So, let's talk about some of the creative things that you are doing. Daisy, I know you started writing a lot lately, and that's been an outlet for you creatively, but it sounds like it's also a place of passion. So, can you share a little bit about that?

DAISY CHAVERS: It really is. I had always wanted to write, and I had always talked myself out of it. And this year kind of opened up a lot of things and made me realize that, like, I have some things to say about some things.

And when I started putting it down to paper, I was shocked, because all of a sudden, like, I'm driving down the street recording idea after idea, page after page after page where things were just like falling out of me. And I was like, "Okay, this feels the most real than anything it's felt in a year."

CHRIS CHAVERS: And I think really a lot of that even stem from Spain or Italy.

DAISY CHAVERS: For sure. I mean, you know, we went to Italy, to one of your retreats in a certain headspace. And I came out of that just like, really lit up. I felt like I needed to reclaim myself. I felt like I really had to kind of, like, find me again. And of course, that was three weeks before the storm.

PATRICK CASALE: Right. Yeah, you came back from the Italy summit excited and ready to, like, take on the world. And then, 3 weeks later, Hurricane Helene.

DAISY CHAVERS: Totally, totally.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. And now-

DAISY CHAVERS: But-

CHRIS CHAVERS: Really, with Spain, you know, a few months ago, we did come back, and luckily there wasn't any natural disaster. So, we could take that momentum and energy. And I think…

DAISY CHAVERS: But you know, it's hard because, like, I've chosen in my life to have multiple careers. And I've never had a moment's insecurity in it. I've always felt like when I'm done with something, I'm done with it. But you got questioned so much in society. Like, "Hey, well, you were doing this. Why aren't you doing that anymore? Why are you hopping over here?"

And so, I've always felt like my whole life, I've had to explain myself when I didn't feel like I needed to give an explanation.

PATRICK CASALE: Sure. Well, I think society, especially, questions women in their career choices, and then if you bring in the ADHD component, and the career hopping, it's like, I'm following my interest, right? Because you used to own a salon, and then I always knew you as an owner of a salon and a hair stylist. Then all of a sudden it was like, I'm closing my shop and I'm actually going to start tattooing. [CROSSTALK 00:21:56]

CHRIS CHAVERS: [CROSSTALK 00:21:57] you know, really, an injury can cause that.

PATRICK CASALE: Right. But, you know, I think that's a cool pivot point of being like, I have so many different ways that I'm creative and how I can be using these skills for the public. And I think that's the part that we lose access to when we experience major trauma, is like you start to even question rudimentary decisions, because your system is so fucking much in shock.

DAISY CHAVERS: Yeah, I agree with that.

CHRIS CHAVERS: And I saw that even when she tore a rotator tough after doing hair or while doing hair. And, you know, you just see your established clientele go away and, you know, not even, like, have any contacts, because you're not doing their hair anymore.

DAISY CHAVERS: Well, and you know, I didn't know that I had ADHD for a really long time. So, I've survived life by hyper-focusing. And you know, I really put all my eggs in this basket and make it, like, my life's work to keep that basket together, you know. And with doing hair, you know, like I built this beautiful salon. I sold it. I moved to Asheville. I built a salon again. Like, it was very, very closely tied to my identity.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

DAISY CHAVERS: And then, you know, tattooing, man, you spend the first five years of your tattoo career feeling like…

PATRICK CASALE: Humbled.

DAISY CHAVERS: Art in a very, very, very different way.

PATRICK CASALE: I'm sure. And I'm sure it doesn't help when you're married to someone who is unbelievably talented but doesn't shy away from letting you know how talented he is.

DAISY CHAVERS: Totally. Well, and I have a daughter that is extremely talented.

CHRIS CHAVERS: She also has tattoos.

DAISY CHAVERS: They're also tattoos. So, yeah. But, you know, it felt like a lesson. It felt like a place that I needed to be. It felt like a place that I needed to struggle through. So, you know, I've always looked at every single thing that I do as like I look at people. You meet people for a reason. You do something for a reason.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

DAISY CHAVERS: And when you need to move on to something else, it's for a reason, too.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I think that's the ADHD experience, unfortunately. It's what really lights me up until it no longer does. And then, once I'm done with it, I need to be completely done with it and completely step away from it.

So, I know that this is a just a challenging time right now for both of you. And I think that it's going to be messy for a little while, while you kind of come out from under the weight of what happened.

So, what do you anchor into right now, with that being said? And maybe the answer is, like, I don't know.

DAISY CHAVERS: Survival.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

DAISY CHAVERS: Honestly, survival.

CHRIS CHAVERS: I mean, for the last few months, we've both been, I think, just kind of obsessed in doing books, and just trying to, like, have something, you know, paying the bills, and really a passionate thing to do.

DAISY CHAVERS: Well, and it's also looked like I don't have to wait for somebody to call me or book an appointment. I can just sit here, and I can make this thing.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. Well, you've self-published now like three books in like a month. So, again, let's go back to ADHD. A very ADHD experience, but you're putting them out into the world, and I think that's very brave and very vulnerable, as someone who is writing a book, that it is the most vulnerable experience I've ever had in my entire life.

And so, self-publishing as a income stream, Chris, you've created some coloring books of some of your designs that you put on an Etsy shop. Correct?

CHRIS CHAVERS: On Amazon, also, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Okay, yeah.

CHRIS CHAVERS: 70% of books sold in the world goes through Amazon, so…

PATRICK CASALE: Right. So, I mean, these are income streams. So, we've got book writing, we've got coloring books, we've got captaining these boats and doing these boat tours. We're still doing tattooing.

CHRIS CHAVERS: I'll sell my socks if someone pays for them.

PATRICK CASALE: Apparently, Chris is going to be on OnlyFans. So, we'll include the link in the show notes.

CHRIS CHAVERS: I don't remember the last time I wore socks, actually. I still think it's weird.

PATRICK CASALE: That means they're a special offer then, so you need to put that in there. Like, "These were barely worn."

I mean, I know it's tough, and you know, I love both you guys. And I know that it's a struggle, but I also see a lot of resilience and just trying to figure out what the fuck comes next and how to just continuously move towards that. And I give you a lot of credit, because a lot of people would have honestly given up from this.

CHRIS CHAVERS: I mean, what else are you going to do? You got to keep moving forward. I mean, I remember when you were like, "I think I'm about to make my own private practice." I'm like, "Absolutely." And you were scared shitless.

PATRICK CASALE: I was. Yeah. Some idiot kept thinking, like, doubt yourself, do it anyway. And then, here we are today. Yeah, I didn't see this coming. And I think so often we do have self-doubt, and we do have that impostor syndrome, and that fear of like, how will this be received? Will it be successful? And instead of letting us talk ourselves out of moving forward, doing the thing anyway, and really just embracing all of the experience as not just a good, not just a bad, but acknowledging how beautiful this journey has been, and even when it's messy, I really wouldn't have it any other way.

CHRIS CHAVERS: I mean, at this point, I just try to look at like any of our, you know, maybe it's a failure in business or, you know, just a mistake, as you know, us two, we are school of hard knocks. We didn't go to college. We've learned through every single one of those mistakes. You know, and one of my very good friends is an architect that spent however many years that is forever, and a lot of money to become an architect, you know? Like, what worked out better? You know, we're the same. You know, we're almost 50 years old. And, you know, like, the mistakes made versus the money spent. Like, who was better? I don't know. I think it's all about the same, really.

PATRICK CASALE: I think it's about the things that we care about, the things that we're passionate about, our values, for me, freedom and autonomy is paramount. So, the ability to work from home, the ability to work from anywhere, the ability to like say, no, I don't want to do anything today. I think that for me, is more valuable than anything else. So, I just [CROSSTALK 00:28:37]-

CHRIS CHAVERS: Seriously, today, right now I will sell you my socks.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, we're going to have show notes with links to Chris's feet pics and socks, so…

CHRIS CHAVERS: I get a pedicure just the other day.

PATRICK CASALE: I have the utmost confidence that you two are going to navigate this and weather this storm, no pun intended. And you know, for those of you listening, if you're like, damn, "Patrick's tattoos are pretty cool." Or, "These two seem like a cool couple." You can go to Savannah or to Asheville and still get tattooed. And I promise you that the end result will be absolutely worth it. And then, including all the other things that you guys are doing. So, we will have all of that in the show notes.

But honestly, you know, I just want you to try as hard as you can to just sit with the fact that you guys have endured something that most people will never endure in their entire lifetimes, and you're still here. So, it's just anchoring into, like, connection and community, and how-to kind of dig ourselves out.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Yeah, you've definitely helped us. Patrick.

DAISY CHAVERS: So much.

PATRICK CASALE: Thank you. I always love when my guests just continue to build my cult following for me. So, thanks for that. No but in all seriousness…

CHRIS CHAVERS: Speaking of cults…

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that can be another income stream, for sure.

CHRIS CHAVERS: I mean, Daisy's second book just came out today, actually.

DAISY CHAVERS: I was just like [CROSSTALK 00:30:01]-

PATRICK CASALE: Talk about it, yeah.

DAISY CHAVERS: Yeah. So, Wait? What? I Grew Up In A Cult. And I would say it was in the last few months that I finally sat down one day and was like, "You know what? Yeah, you fucking did grow up in a cult."

And, you know, I was always very gracious and kind, and even the book is very gracious and kind of, you know, the choices that that people make. And of course, I was born into it, so it wasn't a choice for me. I had to make the choice to leave, right? But I'm in a vulnerable place right now. My parents don't know that I've written this book. They don't know that it went live today. I'm probably going to get some flack for it, but it also felt super-duper liberating to be like, "Yeah, this was real." Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's a powerful message that sounds like it needed to get out there.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Available on Amazon.

PATRICK CASALE: What a good hype man. I mean, we will have-

DAISY CHAVERS: [CROSSTALK 00:31:04] going to edit you out of [CROSSTALK 00:31:05].

PATRICK CASALE: …to everything that they are creating, despite the fact that they did not give me any of those links for their bio. So, we will have those so they're easily accessible. We'll also have ways that you can book tattoos and get in touch with them for that as well.

So, what would you want to just final thoughts, anything that you want to leave the listeners with at all? Or for yourselves?

DAISY CHAVERS: At the end of the day, I would not do anything differently. Like, being an entrepreneur is something I've never questioned. It doesn't mean that it's for everyone.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Absolutely not.

DAISY CHAVERS: You have to really know where you thrive or where you're going to be your most creative. But still, no regrets. And still, like you said, I see us pivoting. It's just taken longer than I think we wanted it to take.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I mean, again, I just want to reiterate that most people do not experience the stuff that we experienced last September, and it's going to just take time to work to get your nervous system back into a place where you have more capacity, your executive functioning is working a little bit better, you feel like you're able to make choices that make more sense and are in alignment. Right now, it's really just like survival.

DAISY CHAVERS: Absolutely.

CHRIS CHAVERS: I find most times we do have or have had to pivot, though it does end up being a bigger and better thing for us. So, that's exciting [CROSSTALK 00:32:46].

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:32:46] that, and trusting that this has happened before, maybe not in this way, but if we can trust that when we've had hardships and hard times, it's ended up working out pretty well, because we are resilient, and creative, and adaptable, and we're going to make it work.

CHRIS CHAVERS: Yeah.

DAISY CHAVERS: Absolutely.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, thank you both for coming on, and making the time, and sharing a little bit of your story. And I hope this helped and resonated for those of you listening. And again, we'll have all those links in the show notes so you have access to all of their books, workbooks, coloring books, tattoo information, etc. But thank you-

CHRIS CHAVERS: Socks.

PATRICK CASALE: Socks, yes, Chris's socks.

DAISY CHAVERS: I don't know where these socks are coming from.

PATRICK CASALE: I mean, he might start wearing yours. And then, you know, Chris's feet are now on OnlyFans. And here we go.

CHRIS CHAVERS: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:33:35] to do.

DAISY CHAVERS: Oh, man.

PATRICK CASALE: Thanks for listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast. New episodes are out on every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. Doubt yourself, and do it anyway. We will see you next week.