Show Notes

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Tina Vitolo, founder of The Black Sheep Therapist® movement, talk about bringing non-traditional modalities and spiritual practices into clinical therapy settings and the service side of therapy. This conversation tackles the gray areas, legal myths, and shame therapists face when paving their own path to offer services like tarot card readings, crystal work, and past-life regression.

3 key takeaways:

1. You Can Integrate Spiritual/Energy Practices Ethically: Dr. Tina Vitolo shares her nationwide research into actual state laws and ethics codes—there is rarely black-and-white language forbidding innovative approaches. If you use clinical competence, appropriate training, and client consent, your practice can be both ethical and innovative.

2. Stop Letting Shame and Fear Lead Your Decisions: Therapists often get shamed online for using things like tarot or other unconventional methods. As Dr. Tina Vitolo says, "Shame doesn’t create change." If you’re transparent, informed, and focused on client values, there’s room to break the mold.

3. Your Authenticity is Your Niche: Patrick Casale and Dr. Tina Vitolo both emphasize that our niches are often versions of ourselves. By owning your background and therapeutic style—even if it’s unconventional—you’ll attract the clients who truly need you.

Dr. Tina Vitolo’s “The Black Sheep Therapist” movement is providing real support and proof that you can be both ethical and innovative. Whether you’re chasing integration or just tired of rigidity in the profession, this episode is your permission slip to show up as your whole self and try a new approach to therapy.

More about Tina:

Dr. Tina Vitolo is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, published researcher, and founder of The Black Sheep Therapist® movement—an online community of over 5,000 therapists redefining what ethical and innovative clinical practice looks like. Holding a Doctorate in Social Work from Florida Atlantic University and a Master’s from NYU, Dr. Vitolo is recognized as one of the only thought leaders in the mental health field, developing tangible, legally grounded frameworks for integrating spiritual, energy-based, and unconventional practices into therapy.

Through her Black Sheep Therapist Academy, Tina provides nontraditional, CEU-approved trainings that translate complementary and alternative interventions into clinically compliant, theory-aligned practice. As the creator of the Innovative Practitioner Accelerator®, she helps therapists navigate the gray areas of law, regulation, and ethics with confidence and clarity—transforming fear and confusion into empowerment and informed innovation.

Dr. Vitolo’s work is built on the foundation of her doctoral research on the intersection of innovation, regulation, and ethical practice. She is the only clinician to have developed a comprehensive framework for ethical integration—rooted in a deep reading of state regulations, ethical codes, and informed consent standards—to support therapists in incorporating any and all nontraditional modalities into legitimate clinical work. Her mission is to dismantle outdated myths, elevate the profession, and prove that spirituality, intuition, and science can not only coexist—but thrive—within clinical practice.

Check out The Innovative Practitioner Accelerator®: Dr. Vitolo’s flagship program, The Innovative Practitioner Accelerator®, helps therapists confidently merge traditional clinical practice with their spiritual, intuitive, or energy-based approaches—without fear of crossing ethical or legal lines. The program includes personalized guidance, templates for informed consent and clinical documentation, and training on how to articulate your theoretical alignment so your work is both compliant and authentic. Learn more on Tina's website: theblacksheepguide.com

• Website: theblacksheepguide.com
• Instagram: @the_blacksheep_therapist
• TikTok: @theblacksheeptherapist
• Facebook: facebook.com/groups/blacksheepguide

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to All Things Private Practice. I am joined today by Dr. Tina Vitolo. She is a licensed clinical social worker, published researcher, and the founder of The Black Sheep Therapist movement, an online community of over 5000 therapists redefining what ethical and innovative clinical practice looks like. 

Holding a doctorate in social work from Florida Atlantic University and a master's from NYU, Dr. Vitolo is recognized as one of the only thought leaders in the mental health field developing tangible, legally grounded frameworks for integrating spiritual, energy-based, and unconventional practices into therapy. 

Through her Black Sheep Therapist Academy, Tina provides non-traditional CEU approved trainings that translate complementary and alternative interventions into clinically compliant theory-aligned practice. As the creator of The Innovative Practitioner Accelerator, she helps therapists navigate the gray areas of law, regulation, and ethics with confidence and clarity, transforming fear and confusion into empowerment and informed innovation. Surprised I hardly didn't jumble over all the bios that I read on here. So, welcome to this show.

TINA VITOLO: Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: I know we are going to be talking about integrating energy practices into your clinical practice. And you wanted to kind of talk about, like, the ins and outs, the gray areas, the misconceptions, all things in between. 

TINA VITOLO: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I have a pure passion of integrating spiritual energy-based practices into clinical practice, because it was something that I very much needed when I was early on in my 20s, going through my anxiety spiral. Conventional mental health didn't work for me. So, I kind of found myself in this space of fragmenting my care all over the place, seeing spiritual practitioners and therapists as well. I really needed both. And I realized there was this huge divide between the two. And both sides like really hate and judge each other, which is also really fun when you're trying to get integrative care and heal yourself. So, that's kind of what drew me into trying to figure out a way to make this tangible.

My whole career, because I've been a social worker since 2006, I've literally been told these two cannot coexist. And this never made sense to me. I was like, “Why? If I need it, why can it not exist?” You know?

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:03:21] the answer for that, like the why?

TINA VITOLO: Oh, yeah. The why is because people are scared of things they can't measure tangibly. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

TINA VITOLO: [CROSSTALK 00:03:32] in a box. So, it's bullshit. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

TINA VITOLO: [CROSSTALK 00:03:35] here, I'm sorry. I probably should have asked.

PATRICK CASALE: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yep. It’s encouraged. Yeah, it is bullshit. Yeah. I think a lot of people will say you can't do this, or they will say the favorite phrase of Facebook groups all over the place is that it's unethical, or that you are, you know, participating in doing harm. What would you say to that stuff?

TINA VITOLO: What would I say? I have a lot of things to say. First, I would say is, where did you read that? 

PATRICK CASALE: Yep.

TINA VITOLO: Because I've read everything. I'm actually doing a nationwide research study pulling the actual black and white language from the state laws, statutes, and ethical codes, to see like where does it say that you can't be innovative in your approaches. Where does it say that you can't integrate these practices? 

And in fact, if you want to amuse yourself, open up your state board. Read how they define whether it's social work, marriage, family therapy, whatever. Now you are all smart… We won't get there, right? I’m not going to go there. Well, smart people, right? And you all have reading comprehension skills. You are going to read this and go, “What the hell does that mean?”

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

TINA VITOLO: Because it's the most drawn-out run-on sentence of nothing I've ever read in my life. So, there really is nothing in our state laws or even in our code of ethics that say that we have to use things like empirically supported treatment modalities or evidence-based practice frameworks, which are two different things. I don't know if we'll have time to get into that, that says that we can't integrate these modalities within psychotherapy to enhance and accelerate the process of healing.

PATRICK CASALE: Right. Yep, yeah. I think if you go to read the code of ethics, your head's going to start spinning, because there's so much there that is unnecessary, and I think it's done intentionally. 

And also, when we're talking about, like, evidence-based practice, evidence-based for who? And who did the research? Did you even look into that? Typically, when we're talking about evidence-based practice in this field, we're talking about things that were done and supported for a majority of the middle class and privileged white populations of people that exist in this country without taking culture into consideration. 

So, when people start saying like, “Well, I use tarot in therapy. I use alternative healing and therapy.” You all of a sudden get this stop sign of like, “Whoa. This isn't evidence-based. You're supposed to be using CBT.”

TINA VITOLO: Yeah. Well, I think it might be good for me to distinguish the difference between these two, because I feel like these are used interchangeably, and they're so not the same. 

So, empirically supported treatment modalities, those are going to be your acronym, your vigorously studied, manualized approaches, right? So, your EMDR, CBT, DBT, like all the things, right? Reducing symptom presentation of this, there's clinical significance for it, for this population, very small pool of individuals, it's really not applicable to a diverse community.

Evidence-based practice, it's a framework. It's saying that we should be looking for the best available research. That research does not have to be, you know, gold standard RCTs. There are so many other research frameworks that fall underneath that, case studies, qualitative research, all the things. And there is actual research on tarot cards. I have it, so I know about it. That's just one piece of it. 

The other piece is, does the clinician have clinical competence in what it is that they're bringing in? Are they trained? Like, not is it they're using it for fun. But have they actually gotten some type of formalized training on how to use this with people? 

And the third is, does it align with your client’s preferences and values? If you're ticking all three of those boxes, which I actually ride for, I have to say, then it's no problem to integrate it into practice. And in fact, almost all of these more non-traditional spiritual energy-based practices can absolutely fall within that framework, because there's research to support it, there's trainings for therapists. And guess what? You can always just ask your clients if this works for them when you're being transparent about the practice.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, well said. Very important distinction. Now, I can think of so many instances where I've seen in these therapist Facebook groups, people just pile on and like attack people who are saying things like, tarot just keeps coming to mind because I've seen the real examples of people like literally saying, “I'm going to report you to your licensing board for doing this with your clients. You are doing harm. You are trying to, like, push people into your way of thinking.” 

And I'm like, “You all, you don't even understand what the offenses are that could be reportable in general. Like, this is ridiculous.” So, I see that a lot. And it's unfortunate, because I think it makes a lot of therapists feel really shameful about saying these are things that I'm really passionate about.

TINA VITOLO: Yeah, you know, I would say shame doesn't create change. So, you know, I've definitely been the recipient of that, especially when I'm just trying to have conversations and give insight. It's so sad, because what ends up happening is, if I write something in just kind of, not defense, but just, you know, supporting someone who has a question, like they DM me on the side. Like, they're scared to, like, have these conversations, because some of you all therapists, you’re mean as hell. Like, you know, I don't know who hurt you. And I'm sorry. And I truly hope you figure that out. But the way you publicly, like, hang people on social media, just shows your wounds so bad. Like, that says more to me than anything you're actually writing. That's number one. 

But, you know, I think people just take this and misinterpret it immediately without being curious. Now, therapists, before you start defending yourself to somebody, see if they're even willing to hear you, because if they're not, fuck it. Like, if they are, have a conversation about it. 

Because we're not saying, “Hey, come in and have a tarot reading instead of therapy.” That’s not what's happening here. We’re saying, hey, we're integrating the use of tarot cards within psychotherapy, and this is how we're doing it.

Now, when I work with therapists, we write all this out in their informed consent. What is tarot? How do I bring it into therapy? Under what theoretical lens am I actually bringing it in? What are the potential risks of bringing in tarot cards?

Now, I use oracle cards, which is a little bit different than tarot cards, but there are some risks to this. But when I bring it into my practice, I'm using it for symbolism. I'm using it for reframes. I'm using it to bring unconscious material into the room. I'm using it from a psychodynamic lens. I'm using it from a transpersonal psychology lens. And I'm writing it out so you can't tell me it doesn't have a space in therapy. So, it's always from that lens, always.

Now, even though I have in my paperwork that this is not a predictive reading, this is not fortune-telling. And at no point should you lose your personal agency and think that I'm giving you this reading, and you must take this as truth. 

But you know, clients can think whatever they want in session. They do it all the time. You know, you might say it's one thing, and then they're going home and saying something else. So, you know, if my client leaves and goes, “Oh, my therapist gave me an oracle card reading in session.” To maybe their friend who's like a caring therapist, and they're like, “Oh my God, that's so unethical. I'm reporting part of the board.” Bitch do it because guess what? My informed consents got me laid out. I know exactly why I'm bringing it into session. 

And that's so important to just make sure you know why you're bringing it in. It's still coming from a clinical lens. And we're not offering two different services. We're still staying funneled under that psychotherapy lens when we're bringing in.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's a really well laid out explanation, because I think that having that really thorough, informed consent for everything you're doing in session is super important, and not to just use, like, one generic form that you may be found on Simple Practice. Like, you all really need to be customizing your informed consents and actually going over the stuff that's inside of it. 

And I think, as someone on the other side of it, a lot of the time, so many of us just check off or sign our informed consents, our professional disclosures, even when we're the client. And, you know, we're not exactly paying attention to what's inside of that information a lot of the time.

TINA VITOLO: No, I agree with you. You know, I've changed my mindset about what an informed consent should be like in therapy. And the way I've been reframing it, it's your first intervention with your client. 

And the one thing I'm noticing is that the one thing that informed consents lack the most is discussions about treatments, modalities, and interventions, which is actually what gets therapists kind of in trouble the most. It's always about, like, you know, there's a little paragraph. Little paragraph on, like, you know, psychotherapy might be triggering, and might get worse before you go. But, you know, everyone's got that one, right? But then, like, that's it. 

And you know, fees, cancellationn policies, you know, litigation cause, you know, recording, whatever, you know, all that's in there. But then, like, what about the actual practice itself? 

So, like, when I work with therapists, there's a whole separate appendix on this. Like, all we're doing is talking about every single modality you're bringing in. Even your ESTs, you're bringing in EMDR, you're bringing in CBT, all these, guess what? There's risks to those, too, and we'll identify each one. You're enhancing those ESTs. Like, CBT, human design with CBT, beautiful mix. Oracle cards with CBT, beautiful mix. 

Like, if you're enhancing those with, you know, more non-traditional modalities, write it up, have your clients sign off on it, so that you are clear and staying in your lane. And you're not getting to get misunderstood as doing like two separate things, in case you do get called out, so that you can have the freedom to practice however you want. 

And the part that gets me is that, you know, there's this myth, right, that if you want to integrate these practices, you have to leave the mental health field and jump to coaching. I'm going to challenge that right now. And I'm going to do this for a personal reason. I needed a therapist who did both. I would have loved if there was a therapist that had been marketing themselves in the world where I could have went online and been like, “They do both?” I would have signed up quicker than you could have imagined. Like so, so quick. 

So, now everyone's jumping to coaching. What happens to the people, the population that needs a therapist that can do both? Because there is something so beautiful about that mix. I have had past life regressions with people who are not therapists. And then, after, you know, I've had that past life regression, I've been like, what do I do with all… Like, I just found out this whole thing about my life. Like, I need, I need somewhere to process this. And I went to my conventional therapist, and they were like, “I don't even think that's real.”

PATRICK CASALE: Right?

TINA VITOLO: I'm like, you know, like, there's such a beautiful space for therapists to be just so much more innovative about the way that they practice, and honestly, accelerate healing for people by integrating these two.

PATRICK CASALE: That is so beautifully said. You know, it almost reminds me, it's not the same situation. But here in North Carolina and elsewhere, there's this still, in 2025, the separation of thought of addiction therapy versus mental health therapy. And how they can't be defined-

TINA VITOLO: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: ….as if your struggles with addiction don't impact your mental health, or vice versa. And I would always sit in those trainings and just think to myself, like this is so archaic to believe that this is separate. Like, we are talking about the holistic viewpoint of humanity. We're not just talking about like, these fragments and these segments of like, well, when you're struggling with using alcohol, you see this person, but when you're struggling with depression, you're seeing this person. But then, I thought, what if you're using alcohol because you're depressed? Who do you see? [CROSSTALK 00:15:36]-

TINA VITOLO: [CROSSTALK 00:15:36] people?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think the integration of just the whole self and acknowledgement of like there are so many ways to heal and there are so many ways to also hold the space of both ands, and nuance is supposed to be our specialty, but I think we so often really see things from a black and white perspective in this profession.

TINA VITOLO: Yeah. And it's not helping anyone, you know? The way I look at it is, if conventional mental health was working, I think the state of our existence right now would look a lot different. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

TINA VITOLO: Obviously, it don't work. Like, you know, you guys were all pushing ESTs down everyone's throat, cool. Everyone was following that biomedical model, here we go. We've been swallowing it up for 100 years. Is the mental health better in the world?

PATRICK CASALE: I would hope that no one listening is like, emphatically, “Yes.” It is not.

TINA VITOLO: They don't look good to me. Like, you know, so what's the problem if we're shifting things a little bit? But there's like, this stronghold grip of, like, “No, no, no, no, no.” Like, I get attacked on social media all the time. Like, “You’re a joke. The profession should fear you.” Like, ooh. Like, what am I doing? Like, oh, my God. Like, my crystals are coming out. Like, and it's going to, you know, like, I'm a joke.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Like an actual witch hunt, in a way, is what it feels like, you know?

TINA VITOLO: Well, I mean, I feel like, collectively, like, you know, I'm definitely your woo woo girl, right? So, I always joke sometimes, I feel like, were we all burned at the stake together, like me and my little IPA posse that have joined, I'm like, everyone is so scared, right? We're so scared of the big bad board. We're so scared, you know? And I was in it. I was so drinking that Kool-Aid for so long, but then I started asking some questions. And I realized that this board, in my mind, I swear to you, I thought it was like, you know, like in England, where they wear the wigs, you know, it’s like a marble? Like, I don’t know. I swear. I thought the board was like, these people, and they're not. 

PATRICK CASALE: They are not. 

TINA VITOLO: They are not smart-

PATRICK CASALE: Nope. 

TINA VITOLO: …people who can answer a question. They’re not even therapists, majority of them, believe me. I have so many receipts from conversations with people on the board, and they won't answer a question for you. I swear to you. I have written hundreds of emails, and I bank them, and I have them stashed for the day I need. I really, really do, because everyone's like, “Oh, it's unethical.” Is it? 

So, I email the board. I ask, “Is this considered an unethical thing? I can't clarify what that means. I can't interpret what that statute means.” Like they never want to answer me. If it was really that bad, you would say something. 

PATRICK CASALE: 100%.

TINA VITOLO: So, Patrick, there's a day, I haven't done it yet, but I don't know if I have it in me ever. But if the day I get pissed off enough, I'm going to email the boards, like mass email, and be like, “I'm thinking about sleeping with my client. Is that a good idea?” And I know they're all going to email me back like, “That is not okay.” Oh, so we're interpreting law today. 

PATRICK CASALE: Sure.

TINA VITOLO: I have a question.

PATRICK CASALE: That's really funny, because I often joke that, like, I think the board in my mind, visually, is like these mole people that live in like a windowless basement, and every file is in like a cardboard box. And like, you email them. And they can't interpret it, they can't respond appropriately. And then, they send out these like mass email blasts to, like, scare you, though, but then, when you speak to them via email or phone call, you're like, “Is that the dumbest fucking person I've ever spoken to in my life? How do they have this position of authority and power, and why are we so afraid of like, whatever sentence they're going to pass?” Because in reality, they don't even know what they're talking about. They can't even organize like, basic phone calls when you're trying to route to the right person. So, like [CROSSTALK 00:21:03]-

TINA VITOLO: Yeah, the more exposure I've had to them, the more I'm, like, I don't even know what the hell I was scared of because, like, you have to show, like, pure gross negligence. Like, there's hard nos in there, you know? Like, you can't sleep with your clients. You can't be high on drugs when you're doing therapy. Like you can't, you know, be sharing confidential information. Hard nos. Like, you do this, your license is gone. Like, it's not a thing. 

But when it comes to practice, I've literally had boards email me back and say, “We don't monitor the efficacy of practice.” I was like, “You all really emailed that back to me?”

PATRICK CASALE: Yep.

TINA VITOLO: You don't monitor, what do you do?

PATRICK CASALE: Well, it's about money, right? Like, it's about money, like licensing fees, the process of keeping something legally attached to the business infrastructure. It's more about like the business infrastructure than anything else. 

Like, and I think it's just a joke that we as helpers feel such an overwhelming sense of dread about, like, okay, I've got to keep my license intact from the board. I've got to make sure that other therapists don't attack me online. I've got to not speak my mind about how I think healing work works, because then I'm going to all of a sudden ostracize myself. I am worried about ethical complaints. 

I still have people who come up to me and say, like, “Do you let your therapist at your group practice dress however they want?” And I'm like, “What does that mean? I'm like, “Yeah, I don't care. I don't want them to wear, like, Bud Light t-shirts. And I certainly don't care any other way.” “So, you let them show their tattoos.” “Yes. Does that have any sort of influence on the work that they're doing?” In reality, with the clients we work with, it's probably going to build more rapport than not.

TINA VITOLO: Yeah, it's always about, I tell therapists, like, the more you can show up whole, the more you can help a client get there, too. And I think this system has just been built for us to break into a million pieces. And I think therapists have gotten the wrong idea. It's like, you know, we have to show up, you know, for our clients, doesn't mean that we have to shape shift who we are depending on what version of a client is in front of us. Like, that's not what that means. It's like, we can hold everything of who we are, still stay whole, and see the types of clients we work best with. 

Like, I feel like, for most people, it like takes them 10 years to learn that you can choose who you want to work with. The problem is, most people you know go through the hazing of community mental health, you don't get a choice, right? So, it's like, you think that something's wrong with you. And in fact, the system was never built to support true, innovative healers. Like, it just wasn't built for that. So, like, you know, we think something's wrong with us, and then we have to go through this whole loop before we find ourselves again. And then, here we are. And we don't need to keep doing this.

PATRICK CASALE: No, we don't. And I think you're seeing more and more therapists, though, who are aligning with that viewpoint, and who are probably going to be more in our realms of thought process, in terms of how we think you can show up. 

And I think I see more authenticity online. I think I see more therapists trying to do more integration, and that's because of people like yourself and other people out there who are like, “Hey, here's how we can do this. Here's what this can look like.”

So, I do think there is some light at the end of the tunnel when I think about it in reality. I mean, I employ 25 people, and I like to think they're all doing things very differently than my experience. And I know that when I used to do coaching, one thing that was very important in our first week, we would like start making lists and columns of like Column A, here's are the clients, and experiences, and traits that show up, that light me up. The clock goes so quickly, I don't even look at it. 

Column B, clients that I know and struggles that I feel very confident with, but I'm not that excited about, but I can do it. I feel competent. 

Or column C, things that I absolutely do not want to work with, or people I do not want to work with. And they would have so much shame around that column, but column A and C are equally important to me. Column C is maybe even more important than column A. 

And I think that we shame the shit out of ourselves for saying like, I don't enjoy working with clients who struggle with A, B, C, or present in this way. And it's just this like profession that has created such a layer of complex shame dynamic that it's almost impossible to separate self from profession.

TINA VITOLO: Yeah, and, you know, like I feel like a lot of therapists that I work with, I know this is definitely right for me. It's like my own personal story has driven me to be the best fit for certain clients, right? Like in my private practice, you know, I work with anxious, you know, codependent adults. So, hello, my whole life, for like, 30 years, you know?

And then, you know, in my coaching business, I work with unconventional therapists that are looking how to, you know, ethically integrate these more non-traditional modalities without losing sense of self. Like, hello, also me. And I think we've been told to just kind of strip ourselves from like, who we are when we become a therapist, that actually the juice is actually in who you are. 

So, it's like, okay to bring that in. And it's like they're just waiting for permission. And like it's so sad, like when I see, you know? Like, I have consult calls all the time. Like, I have someone today, I was even reading their little intake. And it was like, I'm in this area of the Bible Belt, and I know that if I start promoting myself like this, I'm going to get attacked. And, you know, maybe no one's going to want to see me. And I'm like, I already know what I'm going to say on this call with this person. There's someone dying for you to take up space. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yep. I'm telling you that the minute you own it, you give other people permission to own it too, they are going to gravitate towards you. But it's scary as hell. It was scary for me-

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

TINA VITOLO: [CROSSTALK 00:26:42]. No one knew who the hell I was for years, you know? Now I got a whole movement because, like, I'm not being quiet anymore. Like I’m not quiet.

PATRICK CASALE:  Yeah, absolutely. And I think some of the things you said, you know, I say on here all the time, our niches are versions of ourselves. I believe that wholeheartedly.

TINA VITOLO: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that evolves over time as we evolve over time. And I also think going to what you're saying about like that therapist coaching call later, you know, back in the day, I was building my website for my group practice, and on my solo website, I curse all over it. We have some line on the Home page. It's like, “No head nodding. How does it make you feel questions here. Getting started with therapy is fucking hard.” And, you know, honoring the vulnerability. And my web designer was like, “If you say this, you're going to turn off more conservative clients.” And I was like, “Good.” 

TINA VITOLO: Like, fuck out.

PATRICK CASALE: You know, like, we don't need to be for everybody. We can attract and repel based on how we show up. And that means it's going to feel more aligned. And that's okay. And those clients will go elsewhere and find the right fit. And that also means that the clients who need to find us will find us because they relate to what we're saying. 

And I think it's important just as therapists, to have that alignment, because otherwise, that's where I think I see more of the imposter syndrome, self-doubt come in, is when the fit doesn't feel aligned, and you keep missing in session, and it's like, what is happening? And you start to question sense of self of like, it must be me. I must be a terrible therapist or a terrible private practice owner. And in reality, it's like nine times out of 10 is probably just really not a good fit? 

TINA VITOLO: Yeah, it's not a good fit, or you're not in the right system structure, or you're listening to the wrong things. One thing I wanted to just say right now is, like, especially right now with what's going on in the world, there's a huge collective fear with the changes, with the laws, with all the therapists, you know, with the big, beautiful bill, if you want to call it that, whatever. So, that fear, like, I hate it, like it happens every… I don't know, 11,12, 14 months, whatever, like, there's this new thing that therapists get collectively so scared about. And it's like we light up, like, wildfires in California. 

And like, I just want to remind everyone, like, we don't have to do this to each other. And it's like, really, like, it's like everywhere. And I'm like, okay, now we all feel really, really small, right? Everyone's like, rigid and paralyzed. And I'm just like, okay, this doesn't have to happen. 

And now, the part that's really driving me crazy is boards, Congressman's… Because I'm a social, I'm getting all of these hits right, of let's rally together. And my question is, where the fuck were you all? Where have you all been this whole time? 

And I want to tell therapists, like, if you're getting outreach to collab, set a standard before you even invest in that shit. Like, I want to change the way you guys are opening communication with us. Like. you want us to support you, support us. Like, stop acting like you're not in a position of power, because people need you, obviously.

PATRICK CASALE: Without a doubt [CROSSTALK 00:29:58].

TINA VITOLO: Like, this is driving me nuts.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I mean, I 100% agree with that. And I think that's absolutely right. When we see these things happen 12 to 14 months, like you said, it's like, there's collective outrage, and then silence after. Immediately after, it gets forgotten about, move on to the next thing [CROSSTALK 00:30:16]-

TINA VITOLO: [CROSSTALK 00:30:16] okay, we shut them up. And then, like, the minute we start kind of getting our like, you know, movement forward, it's like, we got to shut them down again. Like, let's shut them down.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. The next thing will be like, “Oh, telehealth is going to get ended across the country for insurance purposes.” And that will be collective outrage, for good reason, but there will be no unified, like, movement or advocacy attempt, because that is also a problem with this field, is that we are so fragmented based on licensure types, different states doing different things, and that's a conversation for another day, but that, in my opinion, is done quite intentionally, and it's really hard to have any collective unity in that regard when everyone's doing things very, very, very differently. 

TINA VITOLO: Hence the cult mentality. It’s like, it’s what it is. It's like, jeez.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep. Well, I think there is light at the end of the tunnel. I think people like yourself, people like myself, people who are doing things differently, who are modeling, and leading, and just showcasing that you don't have to do therapy one way, is super important. So, for all of you listening, you know, I think you have to really dig deep and kind of step back and say, what kind of therapist do I want to be on why? And I think values are everything. And I think having your why and aligning with your values, really understanding why did you get in this profession in the first place? 

So, I really appreciate you and what you're showing up and creating, especially just as you're creating more and more therapists who understand that you can integrate both clinical and energy work together, and how this is really something that needs to be looked at more holistically without fear. 

TINA VITOLO: Yes, absolutely. 

PATRICK CASALE: As we're getting ready to wrap up, do you have anything you want to share? And we will link it in the show notes for everyone listening, so that you have access to everything that Dr. Vitolo is about to say.

TINA VITOLO: Yeah, so you're all welcome to join. I have a free Facebook group. I do a lot of free trainings and like free consultation support group in there monthly. It's called Black Sheep Therapists: Embracing Unconventional Practices in Mental Health. So, feel free to join.

My IG is @the_blacksheep_therapist. I am on TikTok @theblacksheeptherapist. Book coming out the beginning of the year, title, still figuring it out, at least the subtitle, but it's called The Black Sheep Therapist, but still figuring out the subtitle. It's like, my big fuck you book. And I'm really excited about it.

PATRICK CASALE: Love that. [INDISCERNIBLE 00:32:46] that, for sure.

TINA VITOLO: Oh, yeah, yeah. I think it's coming out around February, so I'm super excited for that. And you can go to my website, theblacksheepguide.com. It will have links to my CE portal, the Facebook group, all the things. 

PATRICK CASALE: Perfect.

TINA VITOLO: Come hang out with us and join the collective.

PATRICK CASALE: We will have all of that in the show notes for all of you, so you'll have easy access to everything Dr. Vitolo just said. I also think I'll be going into her Facebook group in a couple of months to have a conversation in there as well. So, we'll release this simultaneously. And I'm just kind of like trying to do mental math right now to figure out when that will be, but it will come out in a couple of weeks. 

So, to everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. If you haven't already, make sure to sign up for our summit that's happening in Portland, Maine, September 1st to the third. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. And we'll see you next week.