Episode 15: Doing Things Differently — Pay What You Can [Featuring Tara Holmquist]

Show Notes

I'm sure most of you hear the phrases "charge your worth and scarcity mindset" all the time.

Though I believe in getting paid for the hard work that we do, not all business models are the same.

I talk with Tara Holmquist, a clinical psychologist in Wisconsin about her "pay what you can model" in private practice.

Tara is an attachment-focused psychologist, meaning that everything is about the relationship and trusting the client's insight.

Tara may be doing things differently than a lot of business owners and we discuss why this feels so unbelievably important for her.  She believes that the client knows what works for them and that honoring this, it actually creates more trust and buy-in to the therapeutic process.

We talk about the common misconceptions people may have about a business model like this including:

• How do you set your fees?
• Are you able to pay your bills? 
• How do you trust your clients to choose what they pay?
• What made you decide to run your business like this? 

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A Thanks to Our Sponsor!

I would also like to thank CPH & Associates for sponsoring this episode.

This episode of the all things private practice podcast is being brought to you by CPH & Associates. CPH & Associates is a leading provider of malpractice insurance for outpatient mental health practices throughout the United States. With up-to-date legal resources and competitive rates, CPH can ensure your private practice against board complaints and malpractice lawsuits.

CPH offers both individual and business entity coverage, which can protect your LLC or corporation. A business policy with CPH is tailored to meet the needs of your practice, providing options to add general liability to your office, business and personal property coverage, and cyber liability for data breach coverage. Policyholders, who also have access to our attorney helpline, are provided two hours of consultation with a malpractice attorney for situations with a client that could result in a claim or lawsuit.

CPH has committed to providing exceptional customer service and superior coverage to mental health professionals. Protect your career and find peace of mind with CPH. Get a quote and apply at cphins.com/allthings.

Transcript

Season 2, Episode 5 – Doing Things Differently – Pay What You Can [Featuring Tara Holmquist.]

PATRICK CASALE: This episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast is being brought to you by CPH and Associates. CPH and Associates is a leading provider of malpractice insurance for outpatient mental health practices throughout the United States. With up-to-date legal resources and competitive rates, CPH can insure your private practice against board complaints and malpractice lawsuits. CPH offers both individual and business entity coverage which can protect your LLC or corporation. 

The business policy with CPH is tailored to meet the needs of your practice providing options to add general liability to your office, business and personal property coverage, and cyber liability for data breach coverage. Policy holders who also have access to our attorney helpline providing two hours of consultation with a malpractice attorney for situations with a client that could result in a claim or lawsuit. CPH is committed to providing exceptional customer service and superior coverage to mental health professionals. Protect your career and find peace of mind with CPH. Get a quote and apply online at cphins.com/allthings, cphins.com/allthings.

Hey, everyone, you are listening to the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I am your host Patrick Casale, out of Asheville, North Carolina, a podcast where we talk about private practice startup and all things in between. I am joined today by a very good friend, co-moderator of my Facebook group and colleague Tara Holmquist. She is in La Crosse, Wisconsin and is a PsyD out there, owns TMH Psychotherapy. Today we are going to talk a lot about creating your business around your value system and what works for you so that we can break out of the comparison mindset of, “I've got to do things to keep up with the Joneses.” so to speak. Tara, thank you so much for coming back on. It's always a pleasure to connect and to connect outside of Facebook messages and threads. 

TARA HOLMQUIST: Well, thank you for having me. I always enjoy being here and just talking with you in general. 

PATRICK CASALE: Tara, let's talk about values in our businesses and how to kind of create something that feels individualized and unique. Because I know that what works for you may not work for me. And I think we're all guilty of seeing the Facebook threads of, “I'm going to make $400,000 this year, and that's my goal.” Or, “I'm going to do 900 different things this year in my business.” And then, I think for people starting off or for people who don't value those things that can feel like a gut punch and potentially create a lot of insecurity for entrepreneurs. Tell us about what you've stepped into as you've kind of grown and learned more about what works for you, your business structure, and your niche. And let's kind of take it from there.

TARA HOLMQUIST: Yeah, yeah. No, I am definitely victim to that. I am a participant in those threads and every thread. No, but I've definitely seen that. And I would say that, that insecurity and that kind of drive actually is where I started when I started my private practice. And I think that's where a lot of us do start, because we want to do this right, we want to make the most money or be able to pay our bills, and just do this the way that we had imagined it in our heads when it starts. And I found that I would just get so, so, so insecure, so anxious around the money stuff, the financial stuff, and tying this financial tie, I guess, to my worth in the room. 

And when I was really thinking about my niche, for example, and I want to talk a little bit about my niche and the people I serve, because I actually created my business and my policies, procedures all around this particular niche that I serve, which is attachment trauma, relational trauma. And so, instead of sitting in the sort of insecurity around, how much do I charge for this? Or how about a no show fee? And do I charge full-rate for this? And do I take insurance, do I not take insurance? I'm worth more than this, I have a doctorate, all of this, instead of sitting in that insecurity around that, I kind of stepped outside and realized, you know what I think? I'm talking outside of my own trauma here. This is my own stuff. And if I start to build this business around trying to heal my own trauma it isn't going to…

So, I actually started to turn it around and look at the clients I serve. And so, when we say we choose a niche, which has changed, by the way, in the five years that I've been doing this, it's changed a lot. But when I look at my particular population, I have to look at how they present. Very, very broadly, somebody with relational or attachment trauma is going to have very, very deeply ingrained abandonment fears. They're going to have very, very low self-worth and value around themselves. They probably don't trust a lot of people. They definitely don't feel safe with a lot of people. They don't even know what safety feels like in relationships. And so, those are the type of people that are going to show up and they're going to show up very differently, but they're going to show up with the same sort of deeply held core beliefs around who they are and what they expect out of their relationships. 

And so, I kind of was just like, “Wait a minute. If I’m with somebody who is expected to be abandoned by me or when they get scared, they're going to abandon, they're going to run, I don't know that it's going to serve them to punish them financially if they're just living in reenacting their trauma.” If that makes sense, so just kind of in a nutshell, I kind of was like, “You know what? I want to rework the way I collect fees, the way that I charge my late or no shows. I want to do that in a way that actually speaks to the relationship rather than feeling, ‘Oh, I'm not living up to my potential or I'm not charging what I'm worth, or they're out to get me. It's not a mutual type of thing. It's sort of like me versus them type thing.’”

And so, I changed it. I changed it up, and now I have a pay what you can model. I don't charge any late or no show fees. And it's just kind of worked, and it's really built on and improved my relationships with my clients. There's a very, very deep sort of core belief of value and mutual respect, constantly having conversations around how they feel, and how I make them feel in the room. And it's just something that's just worked for me. It's very different from what we typically, I think, talk about in these Facebook groups, and when we're consulting with our colleagues is like, “Oh, you have a doctor, you need to be charging $100 million a session, and charging for this, and charging for that, and they don't show up, they don't care about you, blah, blah, blah, you charge them for that.” And it just wasn't working for me. So, I switched it up. Here we are.

PATRICK CASALE: So, getting more in alignment with your value system and how you move through the world, how has that actually turned out in terms of your business model and structure? So, it sounds like you're staying pretty full, you live in Wisconsin, I know you're licensed in California, and we can do a whole nother podcast on that one day, but your clients are contacting you. When you present them with the pay what you can model, what typically happens on the other end of the phone?

TARA HOLMQUIST: At first, it's a lot of like uncomfortable silence. It's a lot of, “I don't really know how to answer that question.” for both of us, honestly. It took me a while to get kind of comfortable with having this conversation. The other part of it is, I'm in the middle of also taking insurance as well. So, if I have different conversations with different clients all the time, so I do. I do get a lot of uncomfortable, “What? What do you mean?” conversations at first. But, it's really important to me to kind of shift that power over and let the client know, “This is literally your time. I'm here to provide a service for you. This is how I can do this. These are my skills. You're the expert here. You're the one that tells me how you value this time, how you value the experience, and what feels accessible to you.”

And, it's hard. We have a lot of internalized capitalism. It's all of us, and so, it's like, “Oh, you’re the medical model, and you're the doctor, and I'm supposed to pay, this is what I expected to pay.” And there's a lot of guilt and shame that goes around with that. But after we do have this conversation and sort of really clarify, it's literally very simple. “Okay, so you've seen my website, I do follow up pay what you can model, what do you imagine therapy costs?” And then, they'll say, whatever. They'll pick a number, and then, they'll say, “Okay, and is that something that's doable for you? Or what's something that you feel comfortable with?” If we were to do this every week, once a week, for an hour, what would this feel like for you?” And they tell me a number, and if it's a number that I can realistically go to, it's sort of my bottom, and that's it. Okay, that is what your fee is going to be for this. And we will revisit this when you want to, maybe when I am six months from now, a year from now, just to check in how you’re feeling about what we're doing together, and I try to make it as least sort of money talk as possible and more of, “Are you getting what you thought you were getting out of this? And if not, how do we adjust?”

PATRICK CASALE: So counter intuitive to what a lot of business owners are doing, I imagine, and including myself, my type A is screaming right now with all the open-endedness of that. And I'm like, “No, I need expectations and to know what I'm getting into.” Is there an average amount of money when you put it on the client to say what do you think this is worth? Like, what are some average responses? I'm just curious, based on the fact that you're getting calls from California, and I want to kind of just know what do therapy clients expect to be paying for therapy?

TARA HOLMQUIST: I would say, actually, my California clients is very different from my Wisconsin clients. California clients will often, I would say, average around 100 bucks. They'll say, “I don't know, probably like 100 or so.” And I'll say, “ Is that something that you're comfortable with blah, blah, blah.” It is a lot lower for my Wisconsin clients. It's a different culture out there in Wisconsin, I feel like definitely from California. And like you said, that's a whole other podcast we can talk about the cultures and how to sort of market to the different types of populations, but theirs is a little bit lower. I would say averaging about $75, $80 a session that they usually will say, “I don't know, this much?” which is actually more than Wisconsin insurance’s pay out here, anyway. So okay, if they can realistically do it then I'll take it.

PATRICK CASALE: So, it sounds like really, like you said, reinforcing and validating that statement of you are the author, you are the expert here. You know what you need? And again, just a very different model, and what have you found to show up in terms of do clients stick around for a long time? Do they show up and do the work? Do they have a different level of investment when they feel empowered and supported financially?

TARA HOLMQUIST: Absolutely, absolutely. First and foremost, I have long, long term clients. It's the population I serve, where we parenting, we’re building relationships, we’re teaching how to relate in a different healthier way. So, that's sort of the long haul for people. But when I have these conversations, and especially, when I have the conversations around late fees, or the no show, late cancellations, or whatever that is, I notice that people feel really, really bad at first, “Oh, my God, I'm so sorry, this came up and please go ahead, and charge me or whatever. I'm so sorry. How much is it going to be?”  Blah, blah, blah. And I know it when I have that conversation of, “Oh, my gosh, I hope everything's okay. Don't worry about it. I'll see you next week.” That next week when we talk about it, they're usually sort of bewildered and they're kind of like, “Wait, what do you mean?” And I have the conversation with them around, “It doesn't necessarily have to be punitive that like happened to you. Even if you didn't feel like coming today, you know what I mean? All I ask is that you give me a little bit of a heads up, so I can move my schedule around, instead, if you don't feel like coming today, just let me know.”

 Life happens, and I know that your life doesn't revolve around our sessions together.” So for me, I know, on my end, on my business end, I had to design that so that I wouldn't go broke, so if every single one of my clients decided they're not going to show up this week, for whatever reason, one reason or another, I had to make sure that I have some policy set in place so that I can take care of that if that were to happen, so, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: What does that policy look like for something like that? If you're saying, “Everyone cancels and I can't go broke.” Then what does that policy kind of look like? 

TARA HOLMQUIST: Yeah, so I do have to put boundaries in place. So, I do have like a frequency. If they're doing this often and you can kind of see that they’re tapering away, and they're kind of just not as invested as they originally were, we're having conversations around that. So basically, I ask for 24 hours, I ask for at least 24 hours in advance. And that way, I can move things around, or throw some admin work in there for that free hour. But sometimes if they can't do it in 24 hours, then the next time I see them, I will reinforce that policy, “Hey, I need just a little bit more time.” And if it becomes a pattern, then it’s in my paperwork, but they also know, “Hey, is it time to take a break from this? Let's talk about your progress. Let's talk about are you getting what you originally thought out of this?”

And like I said, it's usually a conversation just based on sort of mutual respect of one another. You know what you're talking about, you know how you feel. It might be hard for you to say it, I'll teach you how to say it, but you know what you want or what you don't want. And honestly, Patrick, the people that will cancel on me the last minute, I've got a group of them who want extra sessions during the week anyway, so it sort of balances themselves out based on their needs, and what they want, and if I can provide that for them. So, it's worked for me so far, it's felt the most comfortable for me, honestly, and that's the most important, is that I don't have the anxiety every time I have to have a conversation or every time I'm looking at my bookkeeping, or my bills, or whatever, and going like, “I need to see seven more clients this week, or else you know, it just…” Yeah, that's the best part of it, is just the breather. That's how it works for me. I don't want anxiety. I already have enough of it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I can certainly relate to that. One thing that comes up for me then is, it sounds like because your niche is around relational and attachment trauma that if you notice someone's kind of being kind of inconsistent with their therapy, and you get to process that in the next session, that is a good way to model healthy boundaries and expectations around time and being respectful to each other's schedules. And instead of handling that in a financial way, being much more inclined to approach that from a relational perspective and approach.

TARA HOLMQUIST: Absolutely, absolutely. And again, it's not something that I could go on for forever and ever and ever. If this is happening in a way that's establishing a pattern, then yeah, the option to take a break, option to go bi-weekly, or once every other month that's always thrown out on the table. And if it's somebody that's just repeatedly still doing it, “No, no, no, I want to come every week.” But repeatedly doing this over and over again, then that is the time that I will say, “I'm going to make the decision for us to take a little bit break right now. I want you to experience this, feel what this feels like. And then, feel free to contact me next month or something like that to see what this feels like.” And oftentimes, they do. And sometimes they don't. It's sort of a relief for them that I make the decision, which I'm mindful of, because I think that plays into some people's sort of traumas or some people's patterns.

But if I'm trying to set the boundaries, and they're not knowing how to honor those boundaries, then I kind of have to assert yourself for them, at least in this conversation or in this situation.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. So, really being the one to be able to model that behavior of, we both need to show up for one another in order for this to work. And also, while simultaneously addressing attachment trauma, just recognizing that stuff comes up in therapy. It can create the desire to run, or to just disappear, or abandon, and holding that space consistently. It sounds like that really empowers your clients to know that although it's not comfortable or safe all the time that the outcome is going to be consistent, and it's not going to really change in one degree or another.

TARA HOLMQUIST: Absolutely, absolutely. One person in particular that I had this conversation with when we switched from insurance to self-pay, I constantly remember him feeling uncomfortable and feeling like, “Oh my gosh, it's so weird. I've never had this experience before.” Where he was empowered to sort of make his own decisions. And it took several sessions for us to kind of work, what's this feel like? And let's talk about the discomfort around this. And in that, I could see it so clearly, because that is one of the patterns that we were working on, is trusting himself, and trusting that other people are there to take care of him instead of hurt him, and we're in this together, and we can rely on each other. And that was actually so cool. That was like therapeutic in and of itself, just those conversations about him deciding what he wanted to pay, and that's exactly what I'm talking about. We have our therapy apps on, everything we do can be seen as a clinical conversation or a therapeutic conversation, it's going to show up no matter what, relational dynamics are going to show up no matter what. They're showing up right now with you and I.

And so, I invite those conversations, it's fun. And it's just happened to be the way that I chose to design my policies or whatever. But it still leads to sort of these clinical conversations that is healing in and of itself. Yeah, he's learning to trust me and himself. And I think it's cool. I think it's super cool. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I can tell how passionate you are about it. And that this is really important for you. And what would you tell people who maybe want to follow a similar path? What kind of hesitations? Or fears did you have when you kind of transitioned to this type of model from the, “This is my rate, this is my cancellation policy, and I'm pretty strict on this.”

TARA HOLMQUIST: I actually get this question a lot. And the insecurities are usually around, “Am I going to make enough money in the week or whatever. Am I going to make enough?” And I really challenge people and I had to do this with myself, because again, this is my own stuff that would come up is that if I'm expecting people to trust me, then I have to trust them also. And so, if we're already going in with the mindset that they're going to fuck with us some way, or they're not going to pay us, or they're just going to cancel on us or disrespect us, then that's how it's going to go. And that's how you're going to feel every time someone needs to cancel, or sickness, or whatever. 

And so that's sort of the work that I've been doing as I've been changing in this model. And that's what I will tell people when they're kind of interested about it, or they want to know more information is, really look at what your own stuff is around finances, what your own stuff is around what you do, and how you view other people. Are people safe for you? What traumas do you have around others? And check those, and heal those, and unlearn some of those things. And then, it kind of makes your decisions a little clearer for you. Whether you choose this model or choose something else that works for you, we need to make sure that we're honoring our own stuff coming up.

PATRICK CASALE: That's a great point. And it has me thinking about how I've experienced therapy on both sides of the couch and my own policies. And I do see a lot of people in different therapist Facebook groups, in terms of cancellation policies, and fees, and no shows, and I respect everyone's decision to make their policies their own. But the one thing I do see a lot of is almost this slight. Like, they take it personally if the client doesn't show up or late cancels, and although I know our time is important, timeliness and punctuality, and structure are very important for me, I also don't look at it in that way, like the client is just out to get you, or ruin your week, or not show up for you. I think there's so many dynamics at play in terms of human behavior, and it is a good time to really have those conversations. 

And I've had to do that with my own clients, because I used to work a lot with addiction, and clients don't show up in that world. And those are times where you just have to have really transparent conversations of, “We're going to take a break.” Like you mentioned, because there are a lot of no shows and cancellations working with a certain population, and that allows you to then open up space for other clients who are maybe a little bit more ready to be there consistently. And I think that's really important too. 

And in terms of the, taking it personally, I think you're right, like really doing the work around this stuff. Because you've heard me say you have to treat your business like a business, regardless if you're a helper, and I do believe you can do both. But I also do believe that you have to do the work in order to be in this field, and be successful at it, and have longevity, and do your best work, because I see a lot of people who get into this field to heal themselves through their work.

TARA HOLMQUIST: I very, very much agree with that.  And it's a very different thing is, we're not going to get into this to heal our own wounds. You can't. It's not going to work. But we can get into this, and notice what it brings up for us, notice that this is a weird feeling, or this is a sensation that I had that I'm not sure where this comes from. You and I, offline, have had conversations constantly about my money stuff, and there's a trigger there, there's a trauma that makes me very, very insecure when I'm spending certain amounts of money, and I have to constantly check that and go, “What is that? Where does that come from? And how is it affecting the decisions I make in my practice, in my life, but very much in my practice? And how is it affecting my clients and their stuff around money?” And to be able to just kind of differentiate that, I think it's hugely important, it's vital to the successful.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I agree, 100%. And so many of us carry money shame, and trauma, and trigger, and whether it be from institutionalized racism, and disparity, and resource, whether it be from people just being treated really unfairly in the workforce, and being paid less. Or if you grew up in poverty, if you moved around a lot, if you just never had security, and I think me developing a gambling addiction, money has been tricky for most of my life. It's a love-hate relationship and it's very triggering. So, I have to do a lot of my own work around that, so that I can run the business, my group practice the way I want to run it. And that includes paying my staff really well, because I think it kind of ties into what you're saying, and it’s the pay what you can model, I pay significantly higher, because I believe that, that allows my staff to do much better work, and to be much more invested in the work that they do. And I see a lot of models, especially, tech firms and startups out in the Pacific Northwest doing that, like, paying their staff significantly higher amounts than everyone else. 

And a lot of people would say, “But you're losing so much profit.” The owner is not going to come in on top and I think that's good. I think it's also creating a culture that works for us within our value system. And that's kind of what we're talking about. And I think, again, it's an individualized approach, what works for Tara doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for you and vice versa. But that's the beauty of being a small business owner. You get to make the decision at the end of the day. And if you're feeling any sort of way about cancellation policies, no show fees, raising your rates, having money conversations, not taking a certain amount of sliding scale, or taking a certain amount of sliding scale, notice that and pay attention to it because it's coming up for a reason. 

And my suggestion is to always step away from social media in those situations, because you're going to see so many perspectives, and some of them can be very shame-inducing. And you and I have talked about that a lot, too, not just financially, but in all spectrums of the mental health industry. So, something to definitely pay attention to when you're starting off and trying to decide what kind of business owner do I want to be and this gets to evolve over time. Your niche gets to evolve, your policies get to evolve. You can change them every month if you really want to. I don't recommend that. But you really do get to create this as you go, because I think we get into small business ownership and entrepreneurialship because we want freedom and autonomy. I think that's always something that is an underlying value and desire for all of us. I pull a lot of people in our Facebook group and that's always an answer, right? Autonomy, freedom, flexibility, and if autonomy, freedom, flexibility to you means reading more books, binge watching more TV, going on more hikes, but just having more time in your schedule, the money at the end of the day, provided you can pay your bills and keep the lights on doesn't really matter that much.

TARA HOLMQUIST: That's exactly, exactly right. Our values don't have to be rooted in learning all the time. It is the thing that makes the world go round. I get it. I mean, we have to pay our bills, we have to live, we have to have our basic needs met, and also, there are other ways to achieve what you're looking to achieve without making $5 million a year, and that's okay. You could be a phenomenal therapist, you could be the worst therapist ever. What you make at the end of the year has nothing to do with that at all.

PATRICK CASALE: That's very true. And I think we associate our self-worth with what we make or how much we accomplish. I'm definitely guilty of the accomplishment piece. But I think we need to take a step back and re-examine what really drives us and what feels aligned within our value system and our beliefs. And it's nice to know that you're doing things differently, and you feel very fulfilled in what you're doing and creating. And on a personal note, I know you just bought a house. I want to know, with the pay what you can model, how do you know, or have any sort of tracking or consistency for your accountant at the end of the year, so that you can do something like that?

TARA HOLMQUIST: Oh, well, I just use my typical spreadsheet that I've been using to track expenses and things like that. It doesn't really affect anything other than in my head I'm like, “Okay, this is what I need to make each month in order to take care of my responsibilities.” My partner does his part and I do my part. And I just have to make sure I get to that. So, what does that mean for me? That means if every single one of my clients pays this amount of money, the lowest that they can pay, then I'll be okay. I need every single person. So, that means if I have 20 clients on my caseload, which is way too much, by the way, 2022, it's going down, I promise. But if I have 20 people on my caseload, and half of them cancel that week, the other half will make up for what the other half didn’t, if that makes sense. 

So I'm always actually making surplus every… I'm making profit every month, so it's just like, oh, I can use what my profit was last month to make up for maybe if I need to make up this month here, and it's really not been an issue. I would say, I've been heavily in the pay what you can for like six, seven months now. And I haven't seen a dip in anything. I haven't seen a drop. Obviously, I'm poor now, because I just bought a house, but I haven't really seen anything, and if not I’ve seen an influx. We're still in the middle of a mental crisis, so I'm still getting called constantly. I'm just not worried. I don't know, like I’ve said, if I'm going all-in with this idea of valuing and respecting the client in the way that I want to be valued and respected, then we're going to take care of each other, we're going to take care of each other. And that's more ways than just financially. It’s okay. We're all in this together, we're all trying to figure this out and make it work.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I really like that. And again, I just want to circle back to how it works for you, and how that feels really important for you. So, it sounds like that is a more sustainable private practice model and goal for you long term, so that you don't burn yourself out. Because I know a lot of therapists who are charging $300 an hour, but seeing 30 clients a week, and can't even think straight at the end of the day. And then, it becomes a conversation of like, what did you work so hard for if you can't even enjoy and appreciate life and what you have? And I just want to highlight that Tara's model is innovative and outside of the box. And that's what we try to do here is highlight people who are doing things differently, and was still able to purchase a home and still able to pay the bills, and still able to feel fulfillment, and enjoyment in life. And that's what this is all about. So, whoever's listening, make this business and the small business journey what you will, and what works for you, and continue to take a look at it, both introspectively and from a distance to try to make sure that you're working and living within your values and beliefs.

Tara, tell everyone that's listening about your Wisconsin Facebook group, and where else they can find you, so people can pay more attention to what you're doing in the therapy world.

TARA HOLMQUIST: Sure. If you're a therapist you have seen me in any group that literally you're in on Facebook, I promise.

PATRICK CASALE: I scold Tara all the time for this, but she is correct. She is in every big Facebook group imaginable, offering very good information and advice most of the time,

TARA HOLMQUIST: Most of the time, and then, the other time it's just a lot of shifts through gifs, and memes, and stuff, which is also fine. But I also run the Wisconsin Therapists and Private Practice group as well. And that was just born out of when I moved here in 2020. I didn't know anybody and I just wanted to network and make relationships. And Wisconsin is very different from California. It's very spread out. It's just different. And I wanted to meet people, and so we've grown it. I think we're at like almost 250 people, which is way more than I was expecting when I opened it up. And I’ve built some great relationships with people and we've made some great connections. And I'm not the only person and I'm not the only therapist that lives in Wisconsin, and that's just [INDISCERNIBLE 00:29:37]. But it is called Wisconsin Therapists in Private Practice, and anybody who is licensed or provisionally licensed, under supervision is welcome to join if you're if you're in Wisconsin.

PATRICK CASALE: Tara does a really great job of moderating that group. I'm a part of it, even though I don't live anywhere near Wisconsin and have no desire to, but I do think that leading by example is something that you do really well, and talking the talk, and walking the walk simultaneously, and the way you show up for people. So, I really appreciate that not just personally, but professionally, and I think it makes a big difference, and it definitely has that attract and repel mentality. And we talk about that a lot on this podcast. So, I just want to say I really appreciate that about you.

And everyone who is listening, I really appreciate that too. You can find more of me at allthingspractice.com where I do individual coaching, group coaching courses on how to start your private practice, host retreats internationally and domestically in really cool fun places, and have a podcast episodes up there as well. Please like, join, subscribe and share. We really appreciate all of the support and following. Releasing new episodes every Monday, so we will see you next week. Thanks, Tara. 

TARA HOLMQUIST: Thank you.