Episode 202: Building Racial Literacy and Having Hard Conversations [featuring Dr. Nathalie Edmond]

Show Notes

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Nathalie Edmond, psychologist, mindfulness expert, published author, and more, talk about her incredible journey publishing “Mindful Race Talk.” They dive into why honest, vulnerable conversations about race and identity are needed in every organization, how creative grit can see you through the ups and downs of self-publishing, and why balancing compassion with accountability truly matters. If you’re an entrepreneur or team leader committed to growth, this is your reminder: lean into the conversations that scare you, and turn your message into impact.

Here are 3 key takeaways:

1. Vulnerability is necessary for growth: Sharing your work—especially on tough topics—means navigating vulnerability, imperfection, and even critique. “How do I capture the way that I am in a workshop?” Nathalie asks. Authenticity shines when you let go of perfection.

2. Balance compassion with accountability: The “dance in between” is crucial. Effective anti-racism work isn’t about shaming or silencing—but meeting people with curiosity, compassion, and honest challenge, even when conversations get messy.

3. Creative projects bring new challenges and rewards: Self-publishing a book brought unexpected hurdles—especially in the final stages. But staying focused on impact, rather than perfection or popularity, drove Nathalie to push through.

More about Nathalie:

Dr. Nathalie Edmond is a licensed clinical psychologist and mindfulness and yoga teacher with over twenty years of experience as a trauma therapist integrating mind, body, and spirit. She has led hundreds of hours of racial literacy and antiracism workshops. She believes that racial justice is a spiritual practice. She has been a director of a women's trauma program, co-host of Rest and Awaken podcast, adjunct faculty, and a JEDI (justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion) consultant. She facilitates Antiracism Revolution, an online membership community where aspiring antiracists continue to explore themselves as racial beings and work towards collective liberation. She is the director of Villanova University's counseling center and the owner of a group practice called Mindful and Multicultural Counseling. 

• Access all of Dr. Nathalie Edmond's resources here: linktr.ee/drnatedmond
• Dr. Nathalie Edmond's book: drnatedmond.com/mindful-race-talk-book.html

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Transcript 

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the All Things Private Practice podcast. Today, I'm joined by Dr. Nathalie Edmond, who is a licensed clinical psychologist, mindfulness and yoga teacher with over 20 years of experience as a trauma therapist, integrating mind, body, and spirit.

She has led hundreds of hours of racial literacy and antiracism workshops. She believes that racial justice is a spiritual practice. Has been the director of a woman's trauma program, co-host of Rest and Awaken podcast, adjunct faculty, and a JEDI, justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion consultant. She facilitates antiracism… I'm stumbling over my words already. She facilitates Antiracism Revolution, an online membership community where aspiring antiracists continue to explore themselves as racial beings and work towards collective liberation. Director of Villanova University's Counseling Center, the owner of a group practice called Mindful and Multicultural Counseling. And you just became a published author. So, congratulations-

NATHALIE EDMOND: [CROSSTALK 00:01:56].

PATRICK CASALE: …on that as well.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: Excited to have you here. I know before we were talking like, "What are we going to talk about today?" Which is, basically, my process for everyone who comes on here, and we kind of see where it goes.

And I know you published this book. I've been in contact with you. I know you did some trainings for my group practice here in North Carolina. I know you through some mutual friends. I think you're an amazing human. You bring so much to the table in terms of authenticity, vulnerability, having hard conversations for a lot of people. And I just want to give you a big shout out for publishing your book, Mindful Race Talk, which is a huge accomplishment. Just to publish anything and get it out into the world, I think there's vulnerability to that, but there's also got to be such, like, this beautiful creation process that happens as well. So, thank you so much for coming on.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I definitely didn't think writing a book or publishing a book would be on my bucket list of things to do. So, it's been an amazing journey. Highly recommended for anybody who has something they want to share with the world.

I know, for me, it was really, how do I get more people to have the skills necessary to have the conversations, knowing that, you know, many of them will never encounter me, never come to a workshop. And yet, feeling like in the times we're living in, we just need more resources to be able to have the hard conversations.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's really well said. And just having that resource readily available, because you're right, a lot of people who might encounter your book may never actually have direct interaction with you or hire you for whatever reason. So, having that be a really accessible resource that is really tangible. And also, it allows for you to create this bigger reach, right? Like it allows you to kind of have a more of a ripple effect than simply just sticking to consultation, or workshop, or training.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Yeah. And I also think, you know, the hardest part of the book for me was, because I do so many workshops, is like, how do I capture the way that I am in a workshop? How do I capture that essence in a book? Because I didn't want it to be like fully academic. I wanted it to be relational, to be embodied. Like, how do you do mindfulness from a book? You know, how do you encourage book clubs and teams to like, really, like, make this part of like, who you are.

And it's so interesting to think about, like, when people were editing the book, like, how do you edit it in a way where it still sounds like me? Right?

PATRICK CASALE: Exactly.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Which might not be kind of like a Eurocentric, you know, typical language, because I don't always talk in that way, and so it's so interesting to go through that whole process.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I'm glad you named that. So, let me ask you, let me back up a little bit. Did you go through traditional publishing, hybrid, or self-publishing?

NATHALIE EDMOND: I went through self-publishing mainly because I wanted to get it out before the election, because I felt like if I went through the traditional route, it probably wouldn't come out to, like next year sometime. And I thought, "Oh my goodness, the world needs these tools now."

PATRICK CASALE: That's so insightful. And just like really ensuring that you wanted to get this out in the hands of people, while a very polarizing experience just went down and is going to continue to for the next, however many years here.

And I think there's a lot of vulnerability in book writing, right? Like editing is… I'm going through a traditional publishing process right now and talk about things being picked apart to the point where, like, your insecurities and impostor syndrome, and whatever just comes out where you're like, "Okay, I don't want to do this anymore." It's almost where I've been at. But I think getting that message out into the world feels more important to me than how I feel about the process emotionally, which is a weird mind fuck.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because I know that I had friends and people in my membership community read early drafts, and yeah, you need, you know, some grit in order to tolerate some of that feedback, because it's so interesting, because the initial read were people who had been through workshops with me before. And so, the feedback was so interesting that they said my first draft felt more guarded than I usually present in workshops. And that was really helpful for me to think through, like, "Huh, you tried to do a vulnerable book, but then you retreated in the process of writing it."

And as they kept reading the book, that I got more vulnerable over time. So, then I had to go back and say, okay, like, what are the ways in which you were basically, like, bringing your academic version of yourself when that's not the kind of book you wanted.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. That is a really nuanced and complicated way to revise and edit. And I think for, like you said, grit, I was thinking this whole time like I really need calloused like fixed theme. I would give it to people in my circle, and they would read it, and I would have to almost immediately say, "I don't want edit suggestions about grammar or formatting. I just want to know if it is engaging. I want to know if the content is valuable." Oh, okay, because some people took, like, laundry list of notes, and I was like, "I don't want any of that shit."

NATHALIE EDMOND: I wish I had known that at the beginning, because at some point I had to be like, "Dad, no. I'll take like 20% of your grammar stuff, and then the rest I don't really need."

PATRICK CASALE: So, throughout this process, have you noticed a shift or a change in anything in your creative process, or how you've kind of shown up? I feel like you're very authentic, and genuine, and open, so I can't imagine much has shifted since publishing.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Well, it's interesting, because in workshops you try to create the sense of psychological safety and your body is there, so people can, like, read the non-verbal's, they can read your energy. But in a book, right? It's like, this is out there in the world, and even recording the audiobook, like that, was really weird. Like, by that time, I was so done with the book, I was like, "I cannot listen or read like this one more time."

But listening to, like, even recording it, I was like, "How proper do I want this to be?" Right? Because sometimes I stumble across my words, right? And so, do I edit that? Do I work for perfection? Or do I like, okay, it's like, good enough. So, even like working through, like, some of that stuff.

But it's really gratifying to know that something is out there. So, when people are saying, like, "What's a good resource?" I actually have something I can physically give them, because so many books around race, I feel either cater to a white audience. And I think everybody needs to do work around racism, not just white people. And I think that balancing compassion and accountability, a lot of books are kind of in your face or too soft, and like, what's the dance in between? And so, I'm hoping, like, that's how it lands with people.

PATRICK CASALE: I like that you said that, like the dance in between, to have that almost middle ground, to make it as, like, digestible and approachable, to basically be all encompassing, right? Instead of just saying, like, people are either going to read this and feel like, "Oh, this is really in my face. This makes me uncomfortable." Which probably needs to happen to some degree. But also, how do we pull that back and really soften things, too, to get the message across in a way where someone's going to come away and actually really think about it, digest it, and then start to incorporate it into their daily life.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Yeah, and regardless of how people voted for the presidential election, I love that there were resources in the book about how do we cultivate curiosity for people who vote differently than you, or who are very passionate about topics that are very different from you? And how do you notice how you get triggered, right? And all the different intersecting oppressions, like, how do we become aware of that, and bring that into the conversation? Because if we all just keep to our silos, it's not going to bring healing to the world, it's not going to build bridges.

PATRICK CASALE: No, no. I feel like there's so much division as there is already. And then, when you add in, like social media into the mix, where it is either an echo chamber, it's just like you can be attacked pretty openly with just one comment.

So, having that mindful discussion, because I think what you just said is so important, the curiosity component. It seems like we typically… Well, I don't want to overgeneralize. It feels like there's a lot of society that doesn't have access to that curiosity a lot of the time, at least on social media spaces. I don't know, in person. I think it's different when you're able to have a conversation, read body language, read, like, context cues, social media can become, honestly like a bloodbath.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Oh yeah, and I mean, we were talking right before we started about my recent kind of backlash that I experienced where I had to really use all the resources in my book as a way to say, like, if we do harm in some way, or someone just strongly disagrees with something you said, or takes it out of context, right, particularly, on social media, where it can be so brutal, where we can easily dehumanize each other, like, what's a way? I think so much about abolition, or just like, how do I put into practice trying not to dehumanize people, even if I feel like they're dehumanizing me? And that's the practice, that's the work.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I'm glad you named that. And like, I give you a lot of empathy for that experience, because I would have had a hard time in that space, you know? Like, my RSD gets triggered when stuff starts getting picked apart, or comments become hurtful or hateful.

And my instinct in a lot of situations is like, how do I turn comments off? How do I back away? How do I just not pay attention to this? And I don't think that's always the appropriate direction, especially, as someone with a following like, to go into that mode. But sometimes it does become like, how do I protect my mental health at all costs in this scenario that was not intended to go in this direction?

NATHALIE EDMOND: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And thinking about, for me, I definitely turn comments off. Like, I had to ask my teenagers, like, how do you turn comments off over here? Because I'm like, you know, not used to all this attention. But like, finding that balance between, like, taking care of oneself, but then, also, over the last month, noticing how overstimulated I was, and, like, all the ways in which I needed to dial things down. Because, like, yeah, I mean, even, like, I have my own, like, rejection sensitivity that I, like, work through, which I think for me, like, in publishing a book, right? Is like navigating like, okay, this work is out there, so people could write reviews and comments. And so, like, how do I, like, not take that personally? But also, it's also like, this is like, my life's work here in this book, right? And so, I'm going to take it personally, even though I know it's not about me.

PATRICK CASALE: That just hit hard. Yeah. How do I take it personally when this is my life's work, right?

NATHALIE EDMOND: Right.

PATRICK CASALE: And really, you can do every exercise and strategy under the sun, and still, when we create something this vulnerable and we put it out into the world, it's still going to, like, sting a little bit, even if it's just, like, completely out of context, right?

Like, I think review culture is hilarious to me, because it's ridiculous that you can just say anything at any time. I was just in Spain, and my friend owns a local Spanish Andalusian shop, and she doesn't speak a lot of English. And some of the reviews are like, "Great shop, but the owner doesn't speak English." So, it was like one star. I'm like, "The fuck is this? This is ridiculous. You're also in a different country."

So, I think having like your work out into the world, there is that extra layer of vulnerability, and that comes with a lot of discomfort at times.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Yeah, absolutely. And I think reminding myself that they're always going to be haters, and you know, that the work is supposed to, at least my work around racism and antiracism is supposed to be agitating a bit. And so, you know, it's so interesting that so many black women in the last month, when I said, you know, I did this presentation, and I got a lot of praise, and I got, you know, a lot of hate, they were like, "Good work."

And I was like, "Okay, I hear you, but like, it's hard to feel it in the moment." But yeah, right, yeah. So, it's so interesting. And other people are like, "Oh, you went too far." And other people like, "Good work." And so, it's like, which one is accurate? I don't know.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, God, that is really tough to wrestle with, that's so nuanced and complex. Because I imagine you, to some degree, are like, seeing all sides of it, right? But you're also the person who's like under the microscope. So, then it's like, okay, I understand the sides, but I'm also caught in the middle of it, and I don't know how to necessarily get out from under it.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Yeah. And I think I was just reflecting with some friends last week about that's actually the destabilizing part of it, is being able to hold the multiple truths. Like, it would be easier if I was just binary, right? If I just was like, this is the way it is and everything else is white noise. But because I try to honor so many different truths, that feels harder to live in because it's so messy.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I give you a ton of credit for not only going through the experience and handling it the way you did, talking about it publicly right now, moving through it. So, it sounds like, I mean, just reading your book title in the back, Mindful Race Talk, it sounds like embodiment of that exact title.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Absolutely. And that if you are committed to any kind of anti-oppression work, there's going to be pushback from the people who don't want change to happen, right? That they, for whatever reason, don't want everyone to have equal rights, or they don't want some people to have, you know, that whatever affirms them, whatever helps them thrive, and you know, that's the work, right? Is, how do we build the calluses? How do we build the resources to ride the waves of people not liking you, or people hating you, or people strongly disagreeing with you, but living in accordance to your values?

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. Yeah. I think that is for so many people really difficult to access at times. And I think that, like, encapsulates it beautifully, of like, having to live with the both ands, and staying anchored into your values, and that allows you to constantly kind of circle back when things get messy to be like, "But I'm staying really consistent to who I am and what I believe in." And I think that's really brave and beautiful. I also love your cover art, by the way. I'm like looking-

NATHALIE EDMOND: Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: … at it at like my peripheral and I really like that cover art. So, well done on that.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Oh, thank you. Have you heard the story that that was from? The original cover?

PATRICK CASALE: No.

NATHALIE EDMOND: That I was working with the graphic designer. Like, I try to support, you know, minority owned businesses, and she ghosted me. She gave me, like, a cover, and then she ghosted me. And I was like, "Oh crap. Like, this book is supposed to come out in a month, and I have to start over." But it all worked out. I found a new graphic designer, and, like, she really worked with me to make it even better than the original art was so…

PATRICK CASALE: So, this is a good pivot for a second of like, for those of you who are listening, who want to self-publish, and I'm sure a lot of you do, because I think everyone has a book inside of them and a message to get out, how challenging did you find the self-publishing route to be? And how much of it did you actually, like, handle on your own?

NATHALIE EDMOND: Yeah, I would say I thought the writing of the book would be the hardest, but it was actually the last month that was the hardest. Like, once, like it was done with editing, but it was the graphic art, and then, like, all the different requirements for the audiobook, and the different like PDFs, and all of that stuff.

And then I would say, like, I'm someone who doesn't love marketing. So, then, like, all the ways to, like, put it out there. I mean, I feel like that last month, that September, oh my God. I felt like, every day there was a new obstacle. And it was just me, myself, and I to deal with the new obstacle. So, while I felt like I had lots of independence and I could do it the way I wanted to, it definitely felt like, "Oh my goodness." Like, talk about calluses and grits and like, okay, let's push through here. I wish people had told me, like, that's the worst part. So, now, when I have friends publishing, I say, like, this is the worst part. Like, just know. Like, build an extra time. This is the worst part.

PATRICK CASALE: I appreciate hearing that. And for a lot of you listening, you're probably like, "Oh, that feels like a relief to know that."

So, funny story, our mutual friend Maureen Werbach was like, "If you want to self-publish, here's what I did." And she sent me a very long, detailed, well-organized list of all the steps that she went through. It was like 28 steps. And I looked at it maybe five times. And every time I looked at it, I think my executive functioning, like, took a 20% hit. And I was just like, "No, there's no way I can do this in sequential order or in any order and get this done."

So, I definitely relate to that. You need the grit. You need some, like, perseverance here, because I just don't know if I could do it. And maybe I could, but I really struggle with that stuff. So, amazing that you were able to see that through.

And I know for a lot of you listening, like, if you're interested in publishing, there are lots of guides and steps and people who will offer you support and strategy. And sometimes you can outsource some of this stuff, like you said, the editing, the graphic design, some of the things that you don't know how to do, people are readily available to do that stuff. I just knew for me when I was making the decision of, like, "Do I want to try to get this traditionally published?" Maureen's list was always on my mind as the driving force, because I was like, "I am not going back to that fucking list and I'm never looking at it again."

NATHALIE EDMOND: I'm so glad she did not send me that. I think I would like reach out to her in different parts and she would send me, like, a couple of steps. And I was like, okay, good. Probably if she had sent me the whole list, that might have been a non-starter.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. I copied it from like a text message, put it in my own personal Facebook message to myself, where I use it to, like, circle back to things. Kept opening it, kept looking at it, and being like, "No, this is not good." I'm going to say that that list actually prevented me from starting to write and process it for almost a month and a half because I was so frozen in it.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Right. That's so funny. I know, like, our other mutual friend, Ajitta, I mean, she was just incredible in terms of, like, giving me a strategy of, like, what's the goal of writing this book? Right? It wasn't to sell, like, lots of books, right? But it was more like, I want to put something out there in the world. So, I think being very clear about why you're publishing, like, helps me, because it's like, yeah, it's great that people are buying it, but it's more about like, you know, I ultimately would love teams to be, like, reading this together, book clubs, teachers, like how do we change organizations? How do we change companies so that everybody feels well taken care of?

PATRICK CASALE: And, you know, knowing Ajitta pretty well, I just immediately think of the word impact, and that what you just described just sounds like impact. Like, having that impact, having that ability to ensure that people from different walks of life, people in different stages of life, people with different access to information can have this book readily available.

And I love the idea of teamwork, because I've already been thinking before we started recording, I was like, I should buy 20 plus copies of this for my group practice, and we should use this book as a guide. So, I'm definitely planning on doing that once we get off of here.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: So, I think that's a really cool way to do that. And I know with a book too, like, you can turn this into a workbook, right? Like, if you want to do. You can turn that book into so much content, for those of you listening. Like, it doesn't have to just stop with the book, if that's not your goal. You can use that book for leveraging speaking opportunities. So, there's a lot of ways that getting this voice out into the world is really useful for you, and your platform, and your message that you want to get out there.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Because I just think about, for me, it's like, I have, like, other jobs I love doing, and so I don't want to do as many antiracism workshops as I once did. And plus, also burnout comes from doing, you know, workshops, particularly antiracism workshops four or five days a week. So, like, this is a way where the work is still happening. But I'm not necessarily, like, doing all of that stuff anymore. And I can do other things that feed me and are more creative.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. Yeah, no, that's a great point. I think almost everyone listening to this is probably looking for that because of the high rates of burnout and whatever you're doing where you're like, I just need to focus on the things that really light me up. So, it sounds like you have really found that.

How has feedback been so far from, like, people who have used it for trainings, or workshops, or for book clubs, or any of those things that have happened?

NATHALIE EDMOND: Yeah, it's been incredible. Like, sometimes I'm like, "Are you all just, like, saying good stuff? Like, who's going to give me, like, some real feedback [INDISCERNIBLE 00:27:02]?" But that's just that inner critic inside of me so-

PATRICK CASALE: I love that.

NATHALIE EDMOND: But it's been great. You know, people have passed it on to other people, and so it's really great to hear. I think the coolest thing is where, in my Pilates class, like, somebody had heard that I had wrote the book, and so she got the audiobook. And she was like, "Oh my goodness. Like, it's amazing to just hear your voice and, like, it's so soothing." And so, I think it's been really helpful for people post-election to just think about, like, how do I approach these conversations from a more grounded place, and how do we just keep doing the work, and keep increasing our impact with other people? So, I really appreciate people, like using it in real time, that it's like actual skills to use, and not just theoretical.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I like that because that feels really tangible for people to immediately start incorporating and implementing. So, if you found that middle ground, like you were searching for, that sounds like a job well done, for sure.

And I can relate to the positive feedback thing and immediately thinking this can't be true, because this all feels like too good to be true. I had like 40 people read my manuscript. They all gave positive feedback. I said, "I can't trust these people. Like, this is not real." Then I sent it to a friend who does editing. She's like, "No, it's really good. Why aren't you trusting this?" "I don't know." I still won't trust it when it comes out. I don't know. It's got to [CROSSTALK 00:28:33]-

NATHALIE EDMOND: I'm looking forward to reading yours.

PATRICK CASALE: Thank you. I appreciate you coming on and just being really open and vulnerable about everything. And congrats on publishing. It sounds like a really awesome resource. And for those of you watching, you can see it over the corner of Nathalie's shoulder, what the cover art looks like, but you can share with the audience where they can find it, so that they can purchase it too. And we'll put that in the show notes for everyone who's listening.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Yeah. So, the book is called Mindful Race Talk: Building Literacy, Fluency, and Agility. And you can find it on Amazon, and it's available in paperback, e-book, and Audible.

PATRICK CASALE: Perfect. Thank you so much for coming on and making the time today. And we will get all of those links and all of that information into the show notes, so you have easy access to Dr. Edmond's new book. Congrats on that, and really appreciate you making the time.

NATHALIE EDMOND: Thanks. Thanks so much for the conversation.

PATRICK CASALE: You're welcome, and to everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out on Saturdays on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week.