Show Notes

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Ariel Shumaker-Hammond, a couple's therapist and professional photographer, talk about the messiness, curiosity, and joy that often come with pursuing the many paths to creating fulfilling careers, especially as an ADHDer.

Ariel’s journey as a therapist, specialist in couples intensives, and professional photographer is a reminder of how rewarding it can be to honor non-linear career paths and the power of authentic connection.

Here are 3 key takeaways:

1. Authentic Relationships are the Heart of Both Therapy and Business: Ariel built her thriving practice and photography business through genuine relationships, grounded in curiosity and shared values—not just traditional marketing. Your network can be your best referral source when you show up authentically.
2. Neurodiversity Fuels Innovation, Not Instability: What may feel like a "meandering" or chaotic path can be a strength, especially for ADHDers and other neurodivergent entrepreneurs. Following passion, honoring limited energy, and not shaming yourself for pivoting are vital for sustainable business growth.
3. Business Models Can—and Should—Evolve: Whether it’s moving into couples intensives for deeper, more effective therapy or blending therapeutic skills with creative talents like photography, you have permission to change things up, ditch "norms," and find what makes you and your clients thrive.

If you’re building a private practice or exploring creative expansions, remember to lead with your authentic self, stay curious, and value the relationships that make your work meaningful.

More about Ariel:

Ariel is originally from North Carolina. After living for almost a decade out West, she missed the soft air, warm greens, and changing seasons, and convinced her husband to move back with her to the mountains. Her pronouns are she/her/hers.

Ariel loves working with a variety of folx, but specializes in couples work, including healing from affairs, or those contemplating separation. She also has extensive training and experience working with infertility challenges, reproductive trauma, perinatal mood and anxiety issues, and people going through major life transitions.

Ariel’s work is largely shaped through an anti-racist/anti-oppression lens, and this often factors into sessions. She is comfortable with and experienced in working with BIPOC (Black Indigenous, People of Color)/people of the global majority, LGBTQI folx, and folx of any gender expression. She continues to work on her own anti-racist and decolonizing journey. She also uses humor, when appropriate, and is never afraid to cry with a client.

Ariel is also a professional photographer, specializing in a documentary style for families, newborn/early childhood, retreats, and headshots/business. For photography & counseling, she offers equity-based spots.

• Instagram: @arielshumakerphoto
• Facebook: facebook.com/ashevillephoto
• Website: arielshumakerphotography.com

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I want to thank The Receptionist for iPad for sponsoring this episode.

This podcast is sponsored by The Receptionist for iPad, a digital check-in system that eliminates the need to walk back and forth from your office to the waiting room to see if your next appointment has arrived. Clients can securely check-in for their appointments and you'll be immediately notified by text, email, or your preferred channel. Break free from interruptions and make the most of your time. I've been using them for almost three years now and it saves me hours in my week.

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I want to thank Alma for sponsoring this episode.

Building and managing the practice you want can be challenging. That’s why Alma offers tools and resources to help you build not just any practice, but your private practice. They’ll help you navigate insurance, access referrals who are the right fit for you, and efficiently manage administrative tasks — so you can spend less time on the details and more time delivering great care. You support your clients. Alma supports you.

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✨ All Things Private Practice — 2025 & 2026 Retreats

All Things Private Practice has some amazing retreat experiences coming up in 2025 and 2026.

We have two retreats in Queenstown, New Zealand. The first is for Neurodivergent Entrepreneurs from March 1st to 8th, and the second retreat, Beyond Private Practice, focuses on moving beyond one-on-one therapy and creating alternative income streams from March 15th to 22nd.

Spaces are limited, so check the links to sign up today. Doubt yourself, do it anyway!

• Neurodivergent Entrepreneurs in Queenstown, New Zealand: allthingspractice.com/new-zealand-neurodivergent
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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the All Things Private Practice podcast. I'm really excited today to have one of my closest, dearest, cutie pie friends. I'm sure Cindy will be smiling. And Ariel's smiling when I say this, from Asheville, North Carolina. So, this is Ariel Shumaker-Hammond, not Arielle. By the way, I have a lot of Ariel's and Arielle's in my life, which confuses a lot of people, which is quite fun for me.

Ariel loves working with a variety of folks, but specializes in couples work, including healing from affairs or those contemplating separation. She also has extensive training and experience working with infertility, reproductive trauma, perinatal mood and anxiety issues, and people going through major life transitions.

Her work is largely shaped through an anti-racist, anti-oppressive lens. And this often factors into sessions, comfortable working and experiencing with the black, brown, indigenous Asian population, people of the global majority, LGBTQI folks, folks of any gender expression.

She also uses humor when appropriate. And is never afraid to cry with a client. Love this. She's also a professional photographer specializing in documentary style for families, newborns, early childhood, retreats, headshots, and businesses, and is also offering couples intensive. So, I hate reading bios. I don't know if you hate hearing bios, but I [CROSSTALK 00:02:12]-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: I hate hearing bios. All I could hear during that whole thing was ADHD.

PATRICK CASALE: I was going to call that out while I was reading it, but you know, I got to stay hyper-focused on what I'm doing or I get distracted. But the reality, for those of you listening, the reason I wanted to have you on is because, not only because you've become such a good friend of mine, we've traveled the world together on all these retreats and events. I want to highlight how cool it has been for me to watch you go from like, "I'm a couples therapist." To, "Oh, I also want to do intensives. Oh, I also am a professional photographer, like, traveling the world, capturing these beautiful moments."

And one thing I will say about Ariel, and this is just my shameless plug, is that you make people feel so comfortable while taking photos. And I speak from experience as someone who truly despises having my photos taken.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: What do I do with my hands?

PATRICK CASALE: I never know. Who the hell knows what to do with their hands? And you're like, "Just do what you normally do." And I'm like, "I don't-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: [CROSSTALK 00:03:16].

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's not good. But you always make me look good and professional. And you capture, like, these candid moments that are so beautiful to witness and experience. And I think you have a real gift when it comes to this.

So, okay, fill in the gaps. Anything that I missed in your bio that you want to share with people who are listening?

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: No. I mean, I think, gosh, what do I want to share? I think I would say when I hear that bio, of course, I hate hearing my bio, like so many of us do, but I see in my mind this just meandering pathway to get to where I am. And I know it's true of you as one of your close friends. I know it's true of many folks in our world. And I see it as both sometimes a frustrating thing and also a really beautiful thing, right?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Because we get bored and we're also intensely curious, and you know, we also have a desire. I can't see the world without seeing inequity and injustice, and that is constant, as I know it is for you. And so, I think all those things, sort of just like, are constantly coming together in different ways and going on different pathways.

And one of the things I love about you is that you just go for it. Like, you're just like, "Okay, well, I'm done with this thing, so now I'm going to do this thing." And I know it's not that simple, but…

PATRICK CASALE: I was going to say, it may look like that to the outsider, but there is a lot of like sitting on ideas for months, if not years of my life, where I'm like... And then, all of a sudden, it's like, now you do it. Where's that voice coming from?

I like that you use, like, this meandering pathway. Because I think knowing you, that feels appropriate. Like, you are an ADHDer. Can I say that, like, explicitly?

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: And I think for a lot of you who are listening, who are ADHDers as well, I think it does feel like maybe not a meandering pathway. Sometimes it feels like a really confusing, chaotic pathway.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Correct. Yeah, meandering was a nice way of saying it. I think.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that was a very Ariel thing to do, to be like, "meandering." But in reality, I think that it is an accurate depiction of what it's like to be a neurodivergent business owner and human, just come and go through life and be like, "What is interesting me? What feels exciting? Where am I going to put my energy that is quite limited in spurts? And where is this going to take me? "

And I think you've done it really well, because a lot of what you've done is based on relationships and cultivating real, authentic, genuine relationships. Would you say that has been kind of a part of this journey?

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: I would say that that is the part of this journey. Like, I think you would say that I'm not great at doing things like marketing. And so that's never been part of this. And part of this journey has always been, you know, it's like I look back over my life, and especially, you know, becoming an adult in my career. And when I tell people about it, I'm always like, "Wow, I've done a lot of different things." And, you know, I don't feel that way. But then when I look at it, it's objectively true. Like, I could never just sit still with one thing.

It was like, you know, when I was in college in Chapel Hill, I started off as a photojournalist. And then, I went into creative writing. And then, I went into anthropology. And then, by the way, I'm going to tack on a second major, and do Spanish, and live in Mexico. And like, oh, and now I'm going to go to grad school, and I'm going to work in HIV, and I'm going to get my MPH.

But then, I'm also going to get MSW, because, turns out I really like social work, and, you know, it just is, like, it felt very, you know, "normal" to me at the time, to do those things. But then, you compare yourself to other people, and you're like, wow, I didn't just stick on one road. I sort of, you know, just was like, "Well, that looks interesting. Let me go over there for a little bit."

But there has been a consistent thread of this, like, I don't really exist well outside of authentic relationships. Like, I think many of us struggle with things like small talk or superficial connection. And I've never been good at that. And for a while, I felt like there was something wrong with me. And I think I'm much more coming into myself as far as like, "Oh, it's okay to just be authentic with people and connect with people that you connect with. You don't have to connect with everybody. And that's okay." So, that's how I've built everything in my business is like word of mouth and connecting to people that I'm curious about, really.

PATRICK CASALE: So, I want to like, one, your journey is a fascinating one. When you list all of that out, it's like, oh yeah, this is ADHD. We could have diagnosed this from afar, right? But in reality, I think it is about that interest-based nervous system, following the passion, seeing where that lies, and not shaming yourself. I know you probably did, like I did, like a lot of ADHDers do, shame yourself when you don't complete something, or you start something and you're like, "I was interested in this six months ago, but it doesn't bring me joy anymore. What's wrong with me? I'm lazy, or I can't follow through."

And in reality, like, no, I just kind of move through the world differently, and in terms of, like, neuro normativity and neuro normative spaces, they're just not suited for me or my nervous system. So, it makes sense why I found my way this way.

Now, I want to say something you said, "I'm not good at marketing." Maybe you're not good at like "stereotypical marketing." But when you say, "All of my business is built on word of mouth." That is marketing, and I think, in its purest form. And so many people would say, like, the best referrals are the referrals that come from people who know, like, and trust you.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: That's true, yeah, for sure. Yeah, the referrals that I get are from people that understand who I am, or at least what my work looks like, and who I'm going to fit with, right? Like, you know, like you read in my bio, I do use humor, and I do use self-disclosure in couples counseling. And you know, I know so many people who don't like doing couples counseling because they feel like it's overwhelming, or it's too intense, or, you know, I can't tell you how many people are like, "Oof, I would never do couples counseling." You know?

And for me, that's where I get really excited. Like, I love it. It's like a puzzle that I'm trying to help someone put together, you know? Right.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:09:47].

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: And so, when people are sending me folks, they know that. They know, you know, the type of therapist I am, that I'm not going to leave out, you know, oppression or injustice, if that's part of the equation, that I'm to bring it up, that I'm comfortable with different populations, that I'm also going to use humor, that, you know, those are all things that I use in counseling. They're not going to send someone to me who really wouldn't fit with that model. And if they do, it's going to end really quickly, so...

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's well said. It's good to know who we are, good to know our strengths and what we feel comfortable and uncomfortable with. So, why intensives? I see so many people starting to offer them. And I totally understand it. Like, okay, we can do more work. We can get deeper. We can get to the root more accessibly and easily. We can make more money. That's certainly part of the equation. And it's because we also don't want to do the same thing over and over and over again, right? Like, that sounds like fucking hell to me.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yeah, I think for me, intensives, what feels exciting about them is in couples therapy in particular. I don't know if I would do intensives for individuals, and I do still see some individuals. But that would feel too much for me, but intensives for couples feels like such an organic flow to what I already do. Because when I'm sitting in couples counseling with, you know, with a couple and I'm trying to do an hour, maybe an hour and a half, it's like you're constantly doing this mental balance of, okay, what could I get into? What do I have time for? Okay, I have 20 minutes left. I really can't touch on this topic that we just started to uncover, because it's going to be too intense for them, and then they have to pack it up and leave.

And so, it's like, you know, every time I'm like, "Damn it, like, we have two seconds left, and I really am just starting to uncover this thing that, like, is the thing, you know? It's the underlying thing."

And so, having several hours, even a half-day intensive, is so much better, because I can actually really put aside the stress of the time constraint and really get into some stuff without the fear of, like, uncovering too much, you know, or not uncovering enough, basically.

PATRICK CASALE: Right. Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense to me. I mean, even with individual therapy, when I was practicing, I mean, you still get into those situations where someone drops something like five minutes before the session, and you're like-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Right. The hand on the door thing.

PATRICK CASALE: What do I do with this? And-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Right. And tell you about this huge trauma.

PATRICK CASALE: And then, run out the door. I mean [INDISCERNIBLE 00:12:17] other therapists [CROSSTALK 00:12:20]-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Of course, we are.

PATRICK CASALE: But I think it makes sense to move into that model and to do more of that. And I think it makes sense to like, want to get deeper, help people resolve, move through rupture, repair, navigate communication challenges, or whatever it is, in potential, even separation. But I think you can get so much more done.

So, if you're listening and you're listening and you're in North Carolina, I mean, you should definitely come to Asheville and spend the weekend and do an intensive with you. She can even do photos for you. [CROSSTALK 00:12:48]-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: It's true. I actually had that thought. It's like, how could I… Because one of the things with people, I cannot tell you how many times people have been like, you should do photo therapy, right? Like photography therapy, which is actually something I have training in, and I'm not interested in doing at all. Like, I want to keep these two worlds so separate, because you know, I've always done photography since I was a kid, and the reason I started doing it as a business, probably within the last decade, I guess, about a decade ago, it's when I started making money off of it was because I needed a balance to the therapy world, you know? What we do is, it's a lot of trauma, it's really exhausting. We can get burned out.

And so, having that balance there feels really good to me, and combining them too much feels bad. But I do think there's a space there where they could rub up against each other, where it could be like, you know, sort of like how we do with our retreats, right? Where it's like, people are learning so much, and they're going through this transformation. It's so exciting for them in the mental health world, business world, and then I'm also taking pictures of folks as they're kind of realizing who they are and uncovering some things about themselves, right? So, I do see that being an interesting connection. Haven't totally, you know, figured that out yet, but that's probably down the road, I'm sure.

PATRICK CASALE: I think, you know, you remind me, and when you say that about like my wife, Arielle [CROSSTALK 00:16:21]-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: [CROSSTALK 00:16:21].

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, the biggest cutie pie of all time. When she was doing like her jewelry business, or her earrings, or whatever she's creating, she's like, "I don't want this to be a business." And my brain is like, "How do you not see the potential here?" And the reality for a lot of people of being like this is bringing me joy. I don't want to be stressed about it. And I'm like, "Everything is a business."

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Like, you can figure it out with anything, you know?

PATRICK CASALE: Mm-hmm (affirmative.)

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: And I think for me, it's like, you know, I add too many things onto my plate. And so, it is an intentional process of saying, like, okay, what do I actually want to do? How much do I want to do it? How much balance do I need? You know, I have three kids. Like, I want to spend time with my partner. Like, there are other parts of my life besides making money, although that's important, and so, it is always a balance of like, how do we figure that out?

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. All right, let's pivot to photos and retreats. What has this been like for you from the first time I was like, "Hey, come photograph a retreat here in Asheville." Where we live to, "Hey, you're kind of the retreat photographer now traveling the entire globe."

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Great question. What has it been like for me? Well, it's been really fun. It's been great. I think that it's not something I imagined, right? It wasn't something where I was, like, "I want to start taking photos of retreats." Right?

I mean, in general, I tend I come from a very documentary photography background. So, that fits, right? Because the type of photography you, Patrick, were looking for and Jen was really around, like, capturing the candids of what was going on, right? And, of course, some post portraits as well, of speakers and everything. But like, you're really wanting to, like, capture the essence of the retreat.

So, I think when you first brought me into the Asheville one, I was like, "Yeah, that sounds really fun, you know?" And it was. And then, I don't even remember how we started doing the international ones. I think you were like, "We're doing this retreat." And I was like, "Let me know if you want an international photographer." Then you, like, as you do, texted me two seconds later, like, "Are you serious? Can we sign you up for this one?" "Great."

PATRICK CASALE: That does sound like me, yes. And I think the feedback that we get, right. My vision was I… And I want to name this for those of you who are like, "Oh, I want to do retreats. How do I afford to do that?"

It was not something I could afford to do when I first started doing them back in 2022, but I realized very early on, like the whole purpose for me, for the retreat is the community coming together, the connections that are being made, the experiences that are lifelong, that you can look back on and anchor into when you're struggling. And I was like, what better way to do this than to have a photographer at each event where people could come away with their memories and make it really special for them?

So, for me, it's almost become like an automatic necessity that I have to build into each event, of like, oh, that budget item is now a photography, like, you know, packaging for the event. And people rave about you. Like, I want to just say that. I try to share that with you when I can.

But again, going back to how comfortable you make people, how you really do such a great job of photographing people who are black, brown, Asian, who a lot of white photographers, if I'm being honest, really don't capture very well. They wash them out. They they're like, blending into the shadow of the picture, my wife included. So, it's been really special. And people message me all the time, and they're like, "Ariel is fucking amazing."

And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm well aware. I wouldn't bring like shit [INDISCERNIBLE 00:19:56] to my events, right? That's not going to happen."

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: So, I just want to say how much I appreciate it, because it's really offered just a different perspective. Even when you're taking photos of me, when I'm very clearly like, "Please stop taking photos." [CROSSTALK 00:20:11]-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: One of my favorite. I'm going to make a calendar of you flipping me off one of these days.

PATRICK CASALE: In different countries and locations.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: Oh, I mean, I've seen you grow professionally in these events, because you've upped your prices begrudgingly against your will, I think, even though you're still like, underpricing yourself massively. How has that experience been?

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yeah, that's a great question. I think part of it, so, you know, well, to touch on the making people feel comfortable in the melanated skin part, like, I think that's an important thing to talk about, too. And I think that the reason I don't give myself enough credit of understanding that me, as a human, as a sensitive human, and also as a therapist, really helps with that piece of it, right? Like, I think I just intrinsically understand, I'm very empathetic.

You know, we're at dinner the other night or last night, and I can feel how anxious and stressed the wait staff was, right? Like, you felt the same thing. And that's true of me all the time. That's my world, that's my nervous system. Like, that helps me, then I bring in the training of being a therapist, right? And like, with all of that combined, I can kind of help people to let down their guard a little bit, which, you know, that's really the trick, honestly.

PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:21:27] Maureen Werbach and myself laugh, smile, or do anything, then I think you're [CROSSTALK 00:21:32]-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Or have Maureen do cartwheels in the street. That's my favorite.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yeah, exactly, yeah. And then, as far as, you know, the way that… I think that being a therapist and a photographer are kind of the same thing in a lot of ways. Like, the way that I see through both lenses is, like, who's this person in front of me? Who are they in the world? How do they exist in the world? Right?

Like, if you're a marginalized person, or you have black or brown skin, like you want to be represented in a way that feels intrinsic to who you are. And so, I'm going to work really hard to make sure that's happening. Like, that's just part of it.

And it's the same with being a therapist, right? Like, if you're a marginalized person in my office, I'm going to make sure that I am coming towards you in a way that is as comfortable as I can make that, right? And being explicit about what that dynamic is. So, it just feels like the same thing to me, honestly. And [CROSSTALK 00:22:25]-

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:22:25].

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: …second part of your question. Oh, it was about money, money. Right, well, you've helped me with that, for sure. You know, for those in the audience, Patrick is always saying, like, "Hey, you're not charging enough." Which is one of his skills, I think.

But also, I think it is hard because it's not like, there's like this, I can like Google, how much does a therapist retreat photographer charge? Like, that's just like, not a thing. So, I mean, we made it a thing, which is awesome. And it's not like, there aren't other photographers out there who do this, but you can't find, like, a price sheet, so…

PATRICK CASALE: Like, I think that's the beauty of niching down sometimes, is like, I get to make this my own, and I get to, like, experiment with what works and what doesn't. And I've seen you raise your rates, again, just going to say on air, like, not to where I want you to have them, because you're so good. And I think that's what frustrates me as your friend, is like, Ariel, you're so good at this. Like, please charge more. Because I know how much energy, time, and care, not only goes into the process of the photography, but behind the scenes of like the editing and ensuring that people have come away with things that they feel really good about.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yeah. I mean, I think part of that is just being a woman, you know? Like, we're not taught, we're not socialized. Well, we're not socialized as social workers, first of all, period, and then we're not socialized as women to learn how to price ourselves correctly, right? So, it's like, you know, I appreciate that feedback from you and your wife, like, yelling in my ear, because it is important to know, and I also have so much fun doing it, right? Like, it should be the opposite, that we know that we can make money doing the things that we love to do, right?

But again, we're not taught that in the social work field. We're taught to sacrifice, right? So, it's like, okay, I do actually deserve to have a balanced life where I can afford to pay my bills and maybe go on vacation once in a while. And also, you know, I don't know how much to charge for that. And I do want to make things accessible to people, that's really important to me. And so, it's that balance of like, how do I have equity slots, both in therapy and as a photographer, but then, how do I balance that with folks who can afford more, so that I can afford the equity spots and be comfortable, right? It's like a puzzle, which you're really good at, so that's why I appreciate the input.

PATRICK CASALE: It's been a blast. You know, we've been trying to think Scotland, Greece, Italy, soon to be Greece again, Spain, New Zealand together. So, it's been really cool, you know?

And for those of you listening, you may have heard me allude to maybe this is it for me, I don't know if New Zealand is the end, but I do know that my energy is telling me it's at least the end for a while. I've appreciated all of our ability to just connect in these places, and spend time, and have conversations, and drink wine in the courtyard of the Italian villa together until like two in the morning, and just have such a blast. And it's really been amazing just becoming friends, and colleagues, and just having these experiences together. So, I just really appreciate it.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yeah, I appreciate it too. It's definitely a icing on the cake. Didn't know that I was going to, you know, love you and some of these people so much. So, that's been really, really awesome to just to see some of the same really… I mean, of course, so you collect really cool people in your life, and now I have the benefit of knowing some of them, too, which is awesome. But, you know, I have really, really loved our partnership. It's been super fun.

PATRICK CASALE: Thank you. And as we wrap this up, I always want to just kind of give you the spotlight to say where can people find you if they want to do intensives, or if they want photography, or any of the other meandering ideas that might come up along the way.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yeah. I mean, I think it's always easiest to just go through my website, probably, which is arielshumakertherapy.com. It's A-R-I-E-L-S-H-U-M-A-K-E-R. People always try to spell that wrong, photography/therapy.com. And you know, you can find all my stuff on there, pretty much, I would say.

PATRICK CASALE: That all will be in the show notes, so you don't have to worry about how to spell Ariel's last name.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Or how to pronounce it.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: How to pronounce it.

PATRICK CASALE: And everything will be included so that you can book your photography sessions, whether it's headshots, or candids, or something that you want to do if you want to visit the Western North Carolina region, which we could certainly use right now. And-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Yes, that is true.

PATRICK CASALE: You know, also just an incredible human to connect with. So, thank you so much for coming on, making the time, and for seeing-

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: Thanks for having me.

PATRICK CASALE: … you in Greece.

ARIEL SHUMAKER-HAMMOND: All right, see you soon.

PATRICK CASALE: And to everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out on Saturdays on all major platforms and YouTube. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. We'll see you next week.