Episode 88: Living & Working Abroad Through Imperfect Action [featuring Marina O’Connor]

Show Notes

Many entrepreneurs romanticize and fantasize about the idea of leaving everything behind to move to another country and work remotely.

It can seem like the adventure of a lifetime, and it might be, but there is more to it than just moving to your location with a laptop in hand.

Like all big changes, there are good and bad things, risks and wins, and ebbs and flows.

If you are thinking about moving your life and business to another country, or if you have in mind some big business plans or projects in general, this episode is for you.

In this episode, I talk with Marina O’Connor, a psychotherapist living in Portugal, virtual practice owner, mom, and rally car driver.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Understand what it's like to live internationally, move around between many cultures and countries, and run a virtual psychotherapy practice while being a parent.
2. See the ways that intergenerational trauma can impact the way you view business ownership and success.
3. Learn how risk and failure can be a strength in entrepreneurship, as well as how you can create and be successful even when the vision isn't clear and the plans aren't perfect.

Big changes and bold moves can mean redoing and restructuring everything you've built before, and it can push you out of your comfort zone. However, it can also be rewarding and exciting, and take you places you could only dream about before.

If you ever get stuck, what really matters isn't that you have it all figured out, it's that you need to just believe that YOU are the person to do what it is that you want to do.

More about Marina:

Marina O’Connor is a mental health practitioner and serial entrepreneur. She has a background in developing businesses and decided to pivot her career to become a psychotherapist around 8 years ago. She now has a psychotherapy practice focusing on working with transgenerational/perinatal trauma and a mental health education business for parents. She is also a semi-professional rally car driver.

Marina's Facebook Group: @mentalhealthforworkingmums

Marina's Website: www.physistherapist.com

Marina's YouTube: youtube.com/@mentalhealthforworkingparents

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey everyone, you are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale, joined today by Marina O'Connor, a psychotherapist that lives in Portugal, who is going to kind of talk to us about her story and her journey from Russia to London, to Portugal, working virtually or remotely as a working mom, a rally car co-driver, which seems pretty damn cool to me, and just taking risks-

MARINA O'CONNOR: Many years ago.

PATRICK CASALE: Many years ago. Six seasons ago of a childhood. So, welcome to the show and I'm really excited to talk to you. You're our first international guest on here. So, that's just cool.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Oh, really. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MARINA O'CONNOR: I feel honored. Thank you for having me.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you had reached out to me about doing something really cool, too, that we could talk about in a second. But I want to get a good sense for the audience of like, tell us a little bit about your story, like your passion for trauma work, and just the work that you're doing, and corporate in Portugal. And I think a lot of people who listen have this romanticized idea of picking up, and moving somewhere, and just ending up in Portugal, or Spain, or somewhere different. And I know that comes with challenges too, to acclimate, and like make friends, and get immersed in the culture. So, yeah, where do you want to start?

MARINA O'CONNOR: Oh, I don't really know. Well, hi, everyone. Thank you for having me. It's really exciting that you said I'm the first guest from Europe. I didn't actually realize that. But yeah, I guess, I kind of have a history of moving around, you know? I was born in Moscow. But the first time I moved away from home was quite early. I went to the States, actually. So, that was kind of my first major move/escape-

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:02:04].

MARINA O'CONNOR: I was in Pennsylvania. 

PATRICK CASALE: Okay. 

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I finished my BA there. And then, I got back to Moscow and I was working. And I wasn't a therapist. I didn't actually plan to become a therapist. It wasn't even something on my agenda for many, many years. 

I had been kind of running my own businesses. I was working, like in venture capital, you know? And it just happened, due to my personal story, that I had to relocate to London because this is where my husband was, and then, move to London, again. Had a major depression because I, obviously, kind of had to step out of my business, which was my baby at that point. And I really worked very hard. I'm a workaholic, so, you know, and a perfectionist and my business was like a huge sense of my identity, you know, and my self-definition was obviously tied with my achievements at that point. 

And I also had, like, very big backing from investors, and it was really, like, very messy. I had to move, got really depressed, thought, you know, I'm a complete failure, I don't have anything, what have I done? 

Yeah, and then it just happened that I've been in my personal therapist many years at that point. And it kind of, I guess, unconsciously, was always like, part of who I was like because of my relationships, you know, and the way I was kind of connecting with people. But basically, I've ended up being trained as a therapist, which was kind of, I guess, I was really driven by my interests to heal myself at that point. You know, I wasn't necessarily thinking long term that is going to be what I'm going to do. And here I am. 

And this is why I guess my interest in trauma, answering your question, obviously, came through my own history of trauma, and you know, my own kind of history of being as a client. And knowing that therapy can be wonderful, and amazing, and basically a huge believer that everyone can benefit from some form of therapy, right? Not like necessarily therapy therapy, but whatever the path people might want to take to heal themselves.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. So, it sounds like quite the journey and I really resonate with what you said about, you know, your business was your baby, and so invested, so connected, and you see parts of yourself and your identity in terms of like what I've created, accomplishment. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs do. And I think a lot of people who own their own businesses do because you work so hard to get it off the ground and it can be really challenging to step away, and separate, and even pack up, and just say this is coming to an end. And I imagine that was a really emotional process in terms, also, of relocation from a different country. And so- 

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, yeah. I mean-

PATRICK CASALE: You go ahead.

MARINA O'CONNOR: I was just going to say, I think, you know, looking back, emotionally, kind of stepping out from the business was one of the hardest things I've ever done. Actually, even when I'm talking now I'm getting really emotional. So, it's really something that has been so incredibly difficult to give up. And I really still carry, you know, all of that unresolved stuff with me. 

And actually, at that point, I think it was all of my identity, you know? It was really all of my identity, this is what… I really grew up with those messages that you are your kind of achievements, if you don't become a lawyer or a doctor, you know, or like a journalist, you're not going to be successful. This was like, very kind of clear messages in my family. And I think having that, and you know, kind of compared to that moving to new country was really easy for me, you know? I was just… and that's, you know, I guess kind of says it all, right? Because it's not easy at all. So, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's such an important part. And I appreciate you sharing that and being vulnerable [INDISCERNIBLE 00:06:47] that inner intergenerational trauma. It's there, it's bubbling beneath the surface. And it's so impactful in terms of how we identify, and our core beliefs about ourselves, and some of the really irrational beliefs that we held on to about our sense of self-worth, and tying it to achievement, and perfectionism, and accomplishment. 

And I like to say that I'm a recovering perfectionist, but it's still very fucking hard because there's so much of that that's so deeply embedded. And it does take a lot of self-work to work through the really strong connection and layers that exist because so often it's like if this doesn't go well then I'm a failure, if this isn't successful then that's a reflection on me, or I'm not doing something right. 

And in reality, like, there's so many other factors, but if we are so used to tying that into who we are, and our sense of worth, it really is a painful experience to us.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, yeah. And I think in that way, you know, the depression that I kind of was going through was really like an adequate response. So, I think it was really something that just allowed me to see the extent, the depth of that. And of course, you know, I've started my training, and it was really part of that, you know, just like exploration, being able to see how kind of unkind that was to myself as well, you know? Just like allowing myself to be led by those beliefs. And for sure, you know, I always kind of talk about myself as a perfectionist is in recovery, but sometimes, I have like relapses, right? Because it's really difficult to get rid of that pattern, you know? Because it's such a deep, unconscious kind of thing. And I think sometimes I see that and I just have to, like, physically stop myself. It's really difficult.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:08:54] through. You know, I think that you can do the work, right? Like, you've mentioned doing your own trauma work, and myself, and whoever's listening, doing your own pathway, and whatever healing means to you. I think the beauty of doing that work, right? And I know you're very passionate about the trauma component, is that when it comes up and surfaces again it's not as debilitating. Like, it's still painful, but you can use the skill sets that you've learned to kind of manage them and work through them. 

And I think, for anyone that owns their own business, let alone just a human being, or an entrepreneur, or a mental health therapist, whatever, trauma is trauma, and you know, we're all going to experience it differently. But as an entrepreneur, when that perfectionism comes up, when those inner child wounds come up, it's really hard to make decisions, it's really hard to feel confident in your decision-making and your sense of self, and get to a place where you feel like you are in alignment with what makes sense for you and what's important for you. And I think that's really challenging.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I was really lucky in the sense that, you know, I've kind of like mentioned, I was running my business, but I've just had this idea, and I didn't actually know how to kind of get financing for that. So, I went to work for a VC, like a venture capital firm. And then they became one of my investors, which was really cool. But I think that experience really taught me and just normalized that making mistakes is part of really building anything, and even doing anything, you know? 

They kind of like… in a way they became a parent, you know? They like offered me that modeling that I didn't have by just like normalizing that everyone who runs a business is making mistakes. You know, they're all like very open about it. Just being part of that environment opened my eyes on really how natural it was, how like it was just like really a part of the whole process, and they were actually very welcoming, you know, and there was absolutely no kind of blame, shame, nothing about it. It was just like, really about it's part of the process, it doesn't need to be perfect, you know, just go and do it, and see where it leads you. 

So, I think that environment really offered me an amazing kind of platform to just be able to, yeah, just like being able to, you know, try all of my ideas, and of course, get that backing with just information that like everything is possible, right? So, you know, I think I was really lucky to have that experience so early on in my entrepreneurial journey because from then on I just kind of got that parts out of my head, you know? And I think this was a huge relief. It was like the way just fell off my chest.

PATRICK CASALE: I can't even sense though when you're saying, your shoulders dropped, and you took a deep breath, and you were like-

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think you made a lot of really important points for people listening because most of the audience are entrepreneurs, or small business owners is the permission to make the mistake. We don't often get that in society, we get the opposite message of you can't fail, failure is a reflection of you, blah, blah, blah, mistakes are not acceptable. 

In reality, mistakes are totally part of the process. They absolutely are going to happen. There's no avoiding them. And I like to reframe them and just kind of look at them as learning lessons, and ways to adapt, and pivot moving forward instead of feeling like, "Oh, wow, I made this big mistake and I must be an awful business owner." Or, "Therefore I'm a terrible human being." And like, letting it spiral, which it can certainly do. So, having that mentorship, that guidance, that support system to normalize fear, and failure, and mistake, I think that is so freaking crucial.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, now even like when I work with clients, anyone with my kids, I don't even think so much about them as mistakes. I kind of like to think about them as just choices. And then, you know, you make a choice, and then, whatever the consequence is or the outcomes of bad like choice, you're kind of just navigating, you know? When you're basically deciding, is it helpful? Is it not? Is it working? Is it not? Because, ultimately, a mistake is also just a choice we make, right? And it's kind of the best available option for us at a certain point of time. And maybe like, in a year, when we're more equipped or more experienced we would be making a different choice. 

But ultimately, just I think, having that compassion and like, support, that this was just a choice, you know? And ultimately, obviously, we need to be able to minimize if like, the consequences are negative for us, but this is all it is. 

And I think I just really try to like, model it for my kids as well so they actually know that, you know, this is life, right? And they're not defined by it. And I actually want that. I really want them to make those choices that they're not going to be like proud of because, at the end of the day, it means that they are exploring, they are actually trying, they are doing something new. And I think this is like as, you know, someone who wants to build, you know, like my projects and my businesses, but also someone who wants my kids to succeed and be happy. I think this is really the most important thing for them to know that they're just accepted and loved with all of that. Just get it messy, right? And then you are going to clean it up.

PATRICK CASALE: I like that. Yeah, get it messy, then you're going to clean it up. I think that's wonderful modeling and I hope that this resonates for people who are listening because so often we prevent our ourselves from doing something out of our comfort zone, or trying, or taking a risk because it feels scary and overwhelming. And we don't know how to do it. Or we move into impostor syndrome perfectionism mode where it's like, I can't do it because I don't know it perfectly, or I don't know to do it perfectly. 

And I always kind of like, think about the image of trying to figure out how to ride a bike as a child and fall off of it because you don't know how to do it yet. But then, you like dust yourself off, and you pick yourself up, and you do it again, and again, and again, and you can do it. You know, I used to ride my bike without my hands on the handlebars, just like riding around like an idiot. The thing is [CROSSTALK 00:15:37]-

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, I love it even now. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you get more comfortable and you're like [CROSSTALK 00:15:40] it's so second nature, and you don't have to overthink it anymore. And it's almost like a part of you. And I think, without making those mistakes, without taking those risks, without falling down and getting up, I feel like the saddest thing in the world feels like wasted talent. And I think that-

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah. 

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:15:59] Bronx Tale when Robert DeNiro tells that to his son. But I believe that wholeheartedly where it's like, I would rather try and fail than never try and roll, and keep myself small because I just am afraid of the mistake that I could possibly make.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, absolutely. And this is, like, my biggest fear for myself is like, you know, that sense of just come to the end of life, right? Like, with that kind of feeling that I had all of that potential, and I wasn't able to, like, transform it into something or not even like, transform into something, but I haven't actually tried everything that I could have tried, or you know, and just really, like, enjoy everything that I could have enjoyed, and having those moments that, you know? And I really believe that, I mean, for me, that's literally the biggest fear, that's my phobia, even not fear. So, I think this is why I really try to do it, to push myself and to. And also, like, enjoy it, right? Because I think very often, I know that I can also forget that element of how fun it can be while, you know, just like trying to overcome like perfectionism and by trying to kind of focus in my, like, internal process, and to like work with this self-limiting self-beliefs, you know? I just like almost forget that it also has to be for me, it has to be fun, I have to like enjoy it because I think when I do enjoy something that I'm doing then it really becomes about that, like, internal sense of like, I'm just like doing something that helps me to expand my potential, to follow my true curiosity, and it really becomes like natural, more natural.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that fun and playfulness is so important in not only small business ownership but also healing inner child wounding because if you're allowing yourself to get into that playful state, you're going to take more risks, you're going to be a little more impulsive with decisions at times, you're going to be more creative because you're just tapping into that part of the brain and you're allowing the stress, the self-doubt, the inner criticism, the perfectionism, the impostor syndrome to just fade away. 

And then, that's when you're at your natural true self. And that's where the most creative projects and just the things that you can put out to the world start to manifest, and the ideas start to percolate. And the fearfulness really subsides a little bit, and we lose sight of that as adults a lot of the time and we are so rigid, and like structured, and so anxious about things. And if we could just take a step back, incorporate some strategies to work through inner child wounding, allow ourselves to be playful, and silly, and fun, that's when you'll start to see these amazing ideas start to come to fruition.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. I mean, this is really what I see. And I see the impact of that. And I think it's truly so important to give our… I know, like, for myself, it's really important to give myself that permission, you know? That permission, just go and enjoy what you do, have fun. And obviously, we can't predict the results, you know, we can't predict the outcomes. And you know, there's that uncertainty, there's always uncertainty, right? No matter how much we plan, no matter how amazing the ideas, no matter like how many factors or how much effort we put into that. 

But I know that if I'm enjoying what I'm doing, if I'm having fun while like trying to build something, then for me it's just worth it, you know? I know that I'm spending my time to really like I am, yeah, it's just completely worth it. And then, at that like point, it's enough to give me confidence to move.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I agree 100%. So, fast forward a little bit, we talk about all the risks that you've taken, the work that you've done, you end up in Portugal, another transition, another "risk." Right? 

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah. 

PATRICK CASALE: And here we are. And tell us a little bit about what you've created living in Portugal because now, again, you're a small business owner. So, you've taken that risk once again, and worked through the trauma of leaving that business behind when you moved to-

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think it was very different when we moved to Portugal. I had my family, I had my husband, who actually has his own business as well. Like, he doesn't have anything to do with the therapy, but he's also a business owner, like entrepreneur. And we had a family. Thinking in that way, I wasn't like moving by myself. I had that kind of security. I also, like, still had my practices in London, which I also do still do as well. So, I think it was like very different, the sense of security that I've had was very different. And the move was like quite impulsive because we weren't actually planning to Portugal, we just happened to kind of come for a weekend, they really loved that, and then, we thought, "Why not move to Portugal?" And then we've ended up in Portugal. So, that was quite an impulsive decision at that point of time. 

Yeah, and it's just really, now, five years after looking back, it was the right move for our family. You know, I was able to kind of to expand my practice here. You know, I work with, obviously, English speakers here. And there's a huge English-speaking community in Portugal. It happened like the regulations are quite similar in the UK and Portugal. So, I don't really know about kind of other countries in Europe. But oh, you got frozen.

PATRICK CASALE: I can still hear you.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Okay. You closed your eyes, so I wasn't sure if you, but yeah, I forgot. That's one of the things that happens is, well, I forget where I was going. 

PATRICK CASALE: That's okay.

MARINA O'CONNOR: But yes. So, ultimately, it was very similar in terms of regulation. So, I think that move to Portugal was not anything as painful, you know, as the move to London that I've had, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. It sounds like because you worked through a lot of the trauma in your life that there was more stability in this move. And doing so as a [CROSSTALK 00:22:41]-

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

PATRICK CASALE: And, although it's impulsive it sounds like it worked out really well.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, yeah. It's a really beautiful place. And, you know, yeah, we just enjoy it. But it's what you've said, you know, I just really had like, a completely different support system, you know, like, through family, but also, for us, like, through my own therapist, right? Through like my supervision. And I think it's really just allowed me to stay connected, to stay, you know, just like to ground myself, and just to be able to fall with some kind of, again, like just having fun, meet new people, like establishing new relationships, and ultimately, seeing, you know, and I kind of knew that we could always go back, right? And there was like, also that, so I think it was like an adventure and this is how we saw it. And that's why it really made this move quite painless for us.

PATRICK CASALE: Love it. Yeah, I love all of that and I hope at some point in time that that's where my path takes me is the goal is to end up moving to Portugal. So…

MARINA O'CONNOR: Oh, yeah, that's a bit amazing. Well, I mean, yeah, I think this is one of the best countries for me. It's beautiful, it's beautiful. And it has like so many things to offer as well.

PATRICK CASALE: I only spent eight days there and I'll be spending more time there as I get ready for the Portuguese retreat that I'm hosting, but I loved it. I just thought the people were lovely, the food, the culture, the architecture, the scenery. Like, I really, really enjoyed it quite a bit up there. And I think it's wonderful now that we're in an age of kind of digital work, and telehealth work, and being able to work remotely that you have more opportunities to kind of make some of this a reality if that's something that you're interested in.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, yeah. And it's really interesting because Portugal is kind of like becoming a hub for like a lot of startups and some people even call it like Silicon Valley of Europe, which I mean, I'm not like sure about that one. But it's definitely, like, becoming quite a popular place for like startups, establishing businesses. They have like huge community of like nomads and you know, just kind of people who work from here, and just like trying to build various businesses, so is the tallying really, it's kind of on the rise for that

PATRICK CASALE: Love it, love it. And I'm looking forward to meeting you in person when I'm over there. Any words of wisdom or advice that you'd offer to the audience about just the risk factors, and the impulsivity, and working through your trauma history or anything that is applicable right now?

MARINA O'CONNOR: Well, wisdom, I'm not sure. But I don't know, I just really think that because of my trauma history, I'm quite familiar with the risk. And I guess that wasn't something that I've struggled with. I think my struggle was actually to teach myself how to perhaps not to take too much risk. And this is like something that I'm actually still navigating because I'm aware of this tendency of mine, where, you know, uncertainty is that still feels very familiar to me. Structure is where I can actually struggle. So, I think in that sense I'm perhaps not going to offer much wisdom because I guess it's like the opposite for many people, right?

But I don't know, I just like feel normalizing that life is uncertainty, right? And business is uncertainty. And I think just one thing that I noticed because I also work with like, a lot of therapists who are kind of trying to take their business to the next level, even here, with some of my colleagues who know that I have that business background is I think that very often people are just kind of waiting for, you know, like a perfect idea, or a very kind of specific, like, clear vision of what they're going to do. And they can like really spend some time, years trying to prepare themselves for kind of making the jump into like, whether it's launching a new product, you know, or like doing something online, or I don't know, building like another revenue stream. And I think that might never come, you know, and I really believe that we don't need to have like a unique ID, or we don't need to figure out that vision completely. I really think it's much more important to believe that you are the person to do whatever you are planning to do. 

And I think also what I find unhelpful for me, again, because I know that a lot of people would say the opposite is like trying to compare, like benchmark myself against what other people are doing because I think, again, if I get into that, that's just going to really like, my perfectionism is just going to have like a major meltdown, you know? So, I think for me, just not looking at what others are doing is what I've trained myself to do.

PATRICK CASALE: I think that's great advice. And I think comparison is the thief of joy for sure and major component of impostor syndrome. And I also believe in imperfect action of building the plane as you fly it because if you're waiting for that perfect idea, that perfect vision, it's probably never going to come. But if you can push through that fear, that anxiety, the unknown, the self-doubt, and do it anyway, you can start to refine the product, you can start to refine the vision as you go. And then, you actually build the momentum instead of keeping yourself frozen or keeping yourself stuck, you know?

MARINA O'CONNOR: Yeah, and I think, you know, your clients, the markets, you know, like everything else is actually going to guide towards the solution that's going to really help to achieve the goals, right? Because I think this is what for me is like trusting the processes, you know. It's really being able to put the energy out there without kind of like thinking that this is how it needs to happen, you know? This is my vision, and this is what I want as an outcome, you know? And if it's like different than that, that means that I have, like, completely screwed up, and then I'm just going to, like, dismiss everything that I've done because I think what can happen as a result of all of that exchange, and, you know, is actually might be like 100 times better or not even like that I've originally planned, and this is actually what happened with my corporate business. You know, it's just that I had one idea, but then as I went to speak to the company that was really kind of turning into something that I wasn't even able to think of because I wasn't like on the side of my clients, right? And I think just listening to that and being open, but also try thing that is going to come, for me, is really important.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. Pivoting and adapting really, really crucial to start this entrepreneurial journey. Marina, I want to thank you so much for coming on, and just sharing your story, and being willing to talk about this. I think it was a great conversation. And I really appreciate your time and just tell the audience where they can find you on or with whatever you're doing right now.

MARINA O'CONNOR: I just have a website. It's called www.physistherapist.com And I don't know, like I have social media as well. But my website has all of my information. And yeah, this is where I can be found. And in Portugal, as well, and in London, occasionally.

PATRICK CASALE: And hopefully, soon some rally car co-driving too.

MARINA O'CONNOR: I hope so, I hope so, yes. I'm planning to go back in a month. I'm really looking forward because that's definitely a definition of fun for me.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, I am looking forward to meeting you in a couple months when I'm over there.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Me too. Thank you so much for having me. It was fun. Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, you're very welcome. To everyone listening, all of Marinas information will be in the show notes so you have easy access to her website and social media profiles. 

And for everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice Podcast, new episodes are out every single Sunday on all major platforms. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway, we'll see you next week.

MARINA O'CONNOR: Thank you.